NDE

There is only *1* story available and THAT is the personal storyESPECIALLY when it comes from someone who DIED.Wise

In this context it might help if you understand that we never "see" anything! Our brain recieves a string of electrical blips down the optic nerve fibres. Out brain then processes these (in a very complex way) to produce our perception of the surrounding world.The brain processes may both operate on bad input or get into a state where they produce bad outputs of the visual processing. To the degree that the visual processes produce a perception that doesn't match the surrounding world we are hallucinating. However, we never see the world perfectly, our eyes and minds together are not a camera. We can easily see things that are not there or not see things which are.Now, take this kind of process and subject it to very high stress. Do you really expect reliable output from it?

And exactly WHAT becomes of the electrical energy that MUST change forms?How come I wound up in another dimension where time did not exist as we know?
FULLY in control of my thought processes and knowing all that was taking place around me INCLUDING the possible end of my life?And peace.....peace GALORE......surrounding me...almost like taking a bath in it.Every BIT as real as.....as..reality.Wise--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Yes, of course.Hard to believe our sight ever evolved.Then how come there have been those who have been clinically dead and SAW themselves trying to be revived and heard EVERY word in the hallway?Wise[This message has been edited by Wise, 11-05-2003][This message has been edited by Wise, 11-05-2003]

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And exactly WHAT becomes of the electrical energy that MUST change forms?

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It changes forms.What's your point?

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How come I wound up in another dimension where time did not exist as we know?
FULLY in control of my thought processes and knowing all that was taking place around me INCLUDING the possible end of my life?

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And peace.....peace GALORE......surrounding me...almost like taking a bath in it.

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Probably because you were hallucinating. Damn near the same thing happened to me, as well. Of course I was on drugs at the time...

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Every BIT as real as.....

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as..

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reality.

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See Ned's post. What you perceive as reality is just your brain's interpretation of stimulus.If the interpreter is screwed up, don't expect the interpretation to be all that accurate.Out of curiosity, how long were you clinically dead?

Yes, BUT............You would be SCHOCKED to hear about what orphan children in China saw in visions of those who died.Demons chaining up unbelievers even BEFORE the exited their bodies and dragging them on the earth like logs.Some individuals (unbelievers) were left to "wander" the earth for DAYS.Wise

Rei
I must say I beg to differ on your assesment of Wise being here to sap productivity with irrelevant topics since we here in Canada have a parliment far more versed in these ablilities.

To WHAT exactly does it change?THAT is my point.Is it a soul or spirit? But I WASN'T on drugs. I was in a CLEAN state of mind. Some say one sees their life FLASH before there eyes. Well I did. And in eternity our lives here are just a "wisp".
Within this "wisp" I saw everything. Every moment in a fraction of a second.
"One day with the Lord is as a thousand years".The time factor in eternity operates at a higher speed and I experienced it. Don't know. The State Trooper said I should not be alive. I was divinely spared and sent back for some reason. Perhaps to inform atheists.Wise

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To WHAT exactly does it change?

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A different state of energy. Like when you turn a fan off, and the kinetic energy stops moving the blades.

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Is it a soul or spirit?

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Neither. It's electricity.Is the electricity powering your fan a soul or spirit?

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But I WASN'T on drugs. I was in a CLEAN state of mind.

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Clean, yes. Working effectively, no.Your brain's processing capability was still impared.

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Within this "wisp" I saw everything. Every moment in a fraction of a second.

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Yeah, same thing on shrooms. Except I didn't have to get horribly injured to get there.

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Don't know. The State Trooper said I should not be alive.

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You're a lucky person.

Then, Wise, just like I hope I would have the strength to resist a torturer here I believe I will choose to ignore the threats that your God feels necessary to issue. I do not respect what you describe, human or otherwise.Believe or else! Is that the best your religion can offer?

Wise
You posted this question. To WHAT exactly does it change?I found information at this website
http://www.madsci.org/.../archives/dec97/880395992.Ns.r.htmlHre is the way the brain generates electrical impulses."Electricity, particuarly in the form of nerve impulses called action potentials, is the main mechanism of signalling within the central nervous system. It works because the brain (and the body as a whole) contains a lot of charged molecules such as Na+, K+, Ca2+, Cl- etc. Membranes such as those which surround cells do not readily let charged particles across them. Membranes do however contain two important types of proteins, ion channels and transporters.Transporters use stored energy in order to actively transport particular ions across membranes in particular directions, against the concentration gradient. This enables there to be much more of e.g. K+ on one side of a membrane than the other. This creates both a chemical (more potassium on one side) and electrical (more positive charges on one side) gradient across the membrane. The ionic difference means that cells normally exist with a difference in voltage across the membrane (a potential gradient). The electro-chemical gradient is the basis of nerve cell signalling, because it is basically potential energy.When a nerve cell receives a stimulus, it responds by opening some of its ion channels. These are usually relatively selective for some types of charged molecules e.g. K+ can pass through them but Na+ can't. Opening of these channels allows e.g. K+ to flow across the membrane down its electrochemical gradient. This results in a change in the potential gradient across the membrane. Normally neurones have a potential gradient of e.g. -70 mV between inside the cell and outside. Opening of K+ channels results in a rapid change in this, rapidly causing the potential gradient to be positive. This in turn causes some potential-sensitive ion channels to open e.g. Na+ channels. The flow of Na+, which transporters maintain at high levels on the opposite side of the membrane from K+, returns the potential gradient towards normal.So, transporters create electrical gradients, which are used by nerve cell ion channels to create rapid, transient changes in potential, resulting in what we call action potentials. Action potentials travel along nerve cells as channels consecutively open and close along the length of the nerve axon. At the end of the cell, the change in potential causes the opening of ion channles selective for Ca2+. Elevated levels of Ca2+ inside the cell causes it to release molecules into the synapse that initiate signals in other cells. This is how electricity is basically the mechanism by which we think!"As the brain is deprived of oxygen due to the heart no longer pumping blood the chemicals used to provide electrical impulses can no longer reach the cells of the brain so they actually remain within the body but are unavailable for use.So to answer your question it doesn't change to anything it is just no longer available for your body to use because you are dead.If you are brought back to life this means that the blood is able to bring these chemicals to your cells.If the brain is without oxygen long enough then chemical changes within the cells of the brain will no longer work properly and brain damage will occur to the extent of time in clinical death.[This message has been edited by sidelined, 11-05-2003]

People have experienced the same thing with meditation, and in Dan Carrol and many others experience, on drugs. The experiences you describe are present in our current consciousness and are accessible.If you want to experience what happens with a little temporary nerve damage, press on the side of your eye (through your eye lid) until your normal vision blackens out and you will start to see designs (at least I do). Now release the pressure and your normal vision will slowly come back. What happened is that the pressure in your eye increased which impaired the ability of your retina to transmit a signal to your brain. Used to do this quite a bit in church during sermon.

If you were clinically dead there should be a record of how long. If it was just a state troopers' assessment that you were dead, I would not be spreading this story around as if it were real.But for sake of argument let us say that you experienced what you did during a period of clinical death (certainly no one is claiming you did not experience what you experienced).The point Dan and Ned have made is that true personal experience does not objective experience make. This is why one has to take one's personal experience and then try to evaluate it in an impersonal way. What could have caused this? How does this relate to other people's experiences?Dan has pointed out that NDE's can be achieved through other means. This is similar to the experiences of those who suffer from "alien abductions" being produced by mechanisms other than a reallife alien abduction.First question, what do you say to those who say they have had a reallife "alien abduction" experience? And as a follow up, what do you say to that same person who has had both that and an NDE and come to the conclusion both are real but the tunnel was actually leading to another dimension and not the Xtian heaven?Second question, you say you were divinely spared and sent back for some reason, maybe to inform athiests. What in your experience defined that it was the "divine" you were experiencing, and not a wonderful extradimensional transfer to some secular afterlife? After all, life could have additional properties we are currently unaware of which allows for movement beyond corporeal form after death.Third, what made this divinity Xtian? The NDE is quite consistent with most other religions that have afterlives. There is at least one (Ramtha) which involves movement to other planes and in a way seems built around the NDE.I am not going to scoff at your experience. I just think it would be wise to first of all find out if you were really dead or if it was just the word of some guy with no medical experience, and secondly to examine the experience by asking yourself the questions above.Personally I find such experiences fascinating. I just don't believe in getting lost in the fascination and miss the details.------------------
holmes

I loved all of Sacks' books.As a gossipy note, Zhimbo knows some people who have worked in Ramashandran's lab, and while he is a good scientist and does really cool shit, he's something of a attention junkie and is not the most fun person to work for.

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Used to do this quite a bit in church during sermon.

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I did exactly the same thing during sermon in mass, too!!!!I also used to stare at the statues and see how long I could go without blinking.