Why people want to believe there is a god.

Originally posted by Mammuthus:Hi nos482
You mentioned you are a victim of thalidomide? I am sorry to hear that. If I understand it correctly your genes are fine but thalidomide changes the timing of gene expression in the limb causing limb reduction. Ideally, one would be able to locally reactivate the development process and re-engage the limb development process. I agree that this would be a wonderful (though sadly very futuristic) application of gene therapy.My limbs are more or less intact, but all of my joints are doubled and come out of place easily. I think that they are closer than many would think. Look at the human genome project when they thought that it would take much more time until they found a "short-cut".Evolutionary developmental biology (EVO-DEVO) looks not so much at conservation of gene sequences but at conservation of gene expression patterns during development which has a much broader impact on phenotype than a specific point mutation in a non-coding gene. It is very likely that the small differences between chimps and humans for example will be due to slight shifts in timing of gene expression during development...there is already preliminary evidence that humans have altered gene expression in the brain for specific genes relative to other great apes...however, thus far, nobody has been able to track the changes during development.Hasn't it been found that both humans and chimps share the same blood types as well and that we can also share blood with little or no filtering?Over the next few centuries as we get a better handle on how all of these processes work I think some marvelous medical applications will be developed....I'm thinking that it may be much sooner than that.and all of them will face incredible resistance from the radical right who will not understand the techniques but will be against them nonetheless.Yes, we see this ignorance based fear in Europe with those who are now protesting what they call "Frankenfoods". Their kind are not new. We had seen them during the start of the Industrial Revolution as well, they were called Luddites. People will do stupid things because of irrational fears.

[QUOTE][B]Easy, all it would take is for god to appear in the so-called flesh.[/QUOTE][/B]You have to earn that through faith. Plus, if you saw God in the flesh and did not believe you would qualify as a Son of Perdition.

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Originally posted by gene90:
[QUOTE][B]Easy, all it would take is for god to appear in the so-called flesh.[/QUOTE]

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You have to earn that through faith. Plus, if you saw God in the flesh and did not believe you would qualify as a Son of Perdition.

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Why do I have to "earn" it? Isn't that circular reasoning? If one already believes in god than god doesn't have to appear to one since there is no need to prove god's existence to one who already believes. One doesn't "earn" the love of another. It is either given freely, or unconditionally, or it means nothing. To say otherwise makes it a lie.Believing in the existence of something, like a god, is not necessarily the same as worshipping said deity.You are using the fallacy of Pascal's Wager.Putting conditions on your god's love is an idea of modern Christianity with its revenge mentality. Modern Christianity is more about control and punishment than about love and forgiveness. The sort of love you are talking about is akin to that practiced by those into S&M; "Punish me, god, I'm a wicked sinner..."[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-03-2002]

What if one's religion does not imply that GOd created humans in His image? Mine for example. I believe that God is unlike any of his creations. So we don't believe that He assumes the shape of an old man touching the index finger of Adam--not like how Michelangelo portrayed Him based on his own faith.

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Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
What if one's religion does not imply that GOd created humans in His image? Mine for example. I believe that God is unlike any of his creations. So we don't believe that He assumes the shape of an old man touching the index finger of Adam--not like how Michelangelo portrayed Him based on his own faith.

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Though, Islam, Christianity, and Judaism all have the same basic roots as being from a male dominated, desert dwelling culture.In Islam only Allah is seen as being perfect thus when a Muslim makes something they usually add a flaw to it.Even in Christianity, where they believe that they are made in their god's image, not all of them have a real problem with evolution. It mainly seems to be with Americans that there is a real problem.But than again far too many make their god in their own image and thus we see all of this nonsense in the world and therefore the point of this thread. [This message has been edited by nos482, 09-03-2002]

[QUOTE][B]Why do I have to "earn" it?[/QUOTE][/B]Because you are here partly to prove the integrity of your faith. If you could just have faith given to you one day it would be pointless. [QUOTE][B]If one already believes in god than god doesn't have to appear to one since there is no need to prove god's existence to one who already believes.[/QUOTE][/B]One thing that bothers me about atheism is the position that it is ok for you to not bother looking into religion because, if there is a God, you just assume that He will walk into your office one day and introduce Himself. Basically, it is an excuse to be lazy.A common (and incorrect) belief amongst non-theists is that faith is something some people are born with and the rest have no hope. That's not true. The prophet Alma from the Book of Mormon: [QUOTE][B]
But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselvesIt must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow. [/QUOTE][/B]In context: ScripturesMy guess is that some of you are also walking around with incorrect definitions of faith. Faith is the "hope for things unseen" not necessarily perfect, absolute knowledge.My guess is that Alma's experiment, being only a page or so long, is one of the primary reasons for the growth of the LDS church because it basically invites experimentation and removes excuses. There are many passages similar to this throughout the book.By the way, something else you don't realize: you don't need a physical manifestation of God to know that God is there, you just need to feel the Holy Spirit. It will confirm what is true. But manifestations, with very few exceptions, only happen to the extremely faithful and usually then only in holy places (temples). God Himself does not dwell with unclean things so the odds are against you (and me). However it is the right of the very devout to behold Christ. The final thing I have to add to this post is that with great knowledge comes equally great responsibility, and even peril. The closest thing to Hell in Mormon worldview is the Outer Darkness, and only those who have seen Christ and then denied Him go there. I hate to disappoint you, but even the atheists here really aren't eligible for Hell though they will be held accountable for their own sins.[This message has been edited by gene90, 09-03-2002]

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Originally posted by gene90:
[QUOTE][B]Why do I have to "earn" it?[/QUOTE]

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Because you are here partly to prove the integrity of your faith. If you could just have faith given to you one day it would be pointless.

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[QUOTE][B]If one already believes in god than god doesn't have to appear to one since there is no need to prove god's existence to one who already believes.[/QUOTE]

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One thing that bothers me about atheism is the position that it is ok for you to not bother looking into religion because, if there is a God, you just assume that He will walk into your office one day and introduce Himself. Basically, it is an excuse to be lazy.

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A common (and incorrect) belief amongst non-theists is that faith is something some people are born with and the rest have no hope. That's not true. The prophet Alma from the Book of Mormon:

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[QUOTE][B]
But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

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28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves?It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

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29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

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30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow. [/QUOTE]

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In context: Scriptures

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My guess is that some of you are also walking around with incorrect definitions of faith. Faith is the "hope for things unseen" not necessarily perfect, absolute knowledge.

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My guess is that Alma's experiment, being only a page or so long, is one of the primary reasons for the growth of the LDS church because it basically invites experimentation and removes excuses. There are many passages similar to this throughout the book.

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By the way, something else you don't realize: you don't need a physical manifestation of God to know that God is there, you just need to feel the Holy Spirit. It will confirm what is true. But manifestations, with very few exceptions, only happen to the extremely faithful and usually then only in holy places (temples). God Himself does not dwell with unclean things so the odds are against you (and me). However it is the right of the very devout to behold Christ. The final thing I have to add to this post is that with great knowledge comes equally great responsibility, and even peril. The closest thing to Hell in Mormon worldview is the Outer Darkness, and only those who have seen Christ and then denied Him go there. I hate to disappoint you, but even the atheists here really aren't eligible for Hell though they will be held accountable for their own sins.

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[This message has been edited by gene90, 09-03-2002]

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So, Gene, do you believe that women, by nature of them being women, are not meant to be or are suited to be, leaders in your church?Also, do you believe, as my weeping friend told me, who converted to LDS while we were roomates in college, that she would not spend eternity with any of her family or friends, because none of us were LDS?

[QUOTE][B]So, Gene, do you believe that women, by nature of them being women, are not meant to be or are suited to be, leaders in your church?[/QUOTE][/B]It was inevitable that you would bring this up, probably before the equally inevitable commentary on polygamy. Last time you mentioned JS in a thread and I defended him I figured it would be then.What you mean is, do I believe that women cannot hold the priesthood (women have repeatedly demonstrated profound leadership ability throughout the history of the church)?If God, when he made men and women biologically different also felt that they should have different spiritual roles then I follow that wisdom and I will not apologize for it.My personal opinion over women in the priesthood? I don't care if the First Presidency sent forth a declaration mandating it tomorrow, it is fine with me. For thousands of years society has been mostly male-dominated and so priestly duties "naturally" fell to men, at least for the most part. As gender roles become less dominant in society it may very well be expedient to God that priesthood positions will be opened to women, and I would like to think that that will be. If that is the will of God, then, again, I make no apologies for it either. I will follow a female prophet just as I will follow a male prophet so long as they have the correct authority.(Women already receive revelation without any need for assistance from the Priesthood. However, a Prophet is the one priesthood holder at any give time who receives revelation and instruction for the church. The gift of prophecy exists only to serve the church at large but revelation helps whoever receives it) [QUOTE][B]Also, do you believe, as my weeping friend told me, who converted to LDS while we were roomates in college, that she would not spend eternity with any of her family or friends, because none of us were LDS?[/QUOTE][/B]That remains to be seen. First people have the Earth life to convert. Then they get resurrected (Hmmmm, I guess that would pretty much settle the issue over whether or not God exists) and they have a thousand years over which their sins will be atoned for and they will be instructed. Then they will be assigned to their realms, and whether those assignments are permanent we do not know but from then on it doesn't look good for members and nonmembers sticking together.Now, here is the crux of the matter. I assume you know that we are fascinated with genealogy, you may or may not know the reason. (If you know you're going to hear it anyway because I'm typing for the audience as well). The crux of the matter is that for a family to stay together in the end they must be sealed in a holy temple. This can be done with the living participants or it can happen vicariously. Right now we are researching our genealogies as far back as we can and performing as many ordinances as we can. During the millennial reign, through prophecy, the identities of all of our ancestors will be revealed and the work will continue until every family is sealed, all the way back to the very beginning. How many of those spirits *accept* the ordinance we do not know. If and when all the LDS prophecies come true I do not know how any spirit could possibly not know where the true church is. But considering that in the pre-existance we lost 1/3 of our fellow souls I am probably wrong. As for my nonmember friends and my family, I am not immediately concerned. I will try to set an example as best as I can but it will be up to *them* where they end up. I know that all souls will hear the doctrine before it is finished though they are best off hearing it now.

Hey GeneOur natural families are just a teacher for brotherly love. Christianity is about the brotherhood of man becoming a family of families here on earth. Christianity is not about 'ordinances' and geneologies. Read the New Testament for statments on that in black and white. The NT did not wipe away a single jot of the OT but boy your BoM wipes away great slabs of both![This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 09-04-2002]

Originally posted by gene90:Because you are here partly to prove the integrity of your faith. If you could just have faith given to you one day it would be pointless.An all-knowing god would already know if I had faith or not. Besides, it is irrelevant if I have faith or not. A truly loving god wouldn't care about something like that. This was the entire purpose of why Christ suppositely died on the cross so that ALL of our sins (past, present, and future) would be forgiven. Are you say that that was a lie?It is the religious who put conditions on the love of their god because they are more into control and punishment than into love and forgiveness. In other words they try to create their god in their own image.One thing that bothers me about atheism is the position that it is ok for you to not bother looking into religion because, if there is a God, you just assume that He will walk into your office one day and introduce Himself. Basically, it is an excuse to be lazy.Actually that isn't correct. An atheist just doesn't wake up one morning and say; "Gee, I think that I'll be an atheists now so I can rebel against god..." The majority of atheists came from religious homes and grew up only knowing what they were told and finding that it was empty and meaningless. In other words they had actually done the real searching and found it wanting. Most Christians just accept what they are told on faith without really trying to find out for themselves. BTW, I'm an agnostic."Human life and destiny is always endangered when prophets of
whatever sort demand, 'Frage nicht, glaube!' Do not question.
Believe!"
-Jack ForstmanA common (and incorrect) belief amongst non-theists is that faith is something some people are born with and the rest have no hope. That's not true. The prophet Alma from the Book of Mormon:You are born to trust and accept everything your parents tell you. This thread is about what many do when they finally discover the truth and can't handle it. The Mormons are a prime example of this.By the way, something else you don't realize: you don't need a physical manifestation of God to know that God is there, you just need to feel the Holy Spirit. It will confirm what is true. But manifestations, with very few exceptions, only happen to the extremely faithful and usually then only in holy places (temples).As I had said that is circular reasoning. We've learned quite a bit about how the brain functions and mainly the root cause of such "visions" as well.God Himself does not dwell with unclean things so the odds are against you (and me). However it is the right of the very devout to behold Christ. The final thing I have to add to this post is that with great knowledge comes equally great responsibility, and even peril. The closest thing to Hell in Mormon worldview is the Outer Darkness, and only those who have seen Christ and then denied Him go there. I hate to disappoint you, but even the atheists here really aren't eligible for Hell though they will be held accountable for their own sins.Hell is an invention of the Church to keep little children in line. The First Christians didn't believe in either a hell or a devil. To them it was either heaven or the GRAVE. To them this was a greater punishment than anything which modern Christianity had come up with with its revenge mentality.[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-04-2002]

Greetings gene90
gene90 says:
Because you are here partly to prove the integrity of your faith. If you could just have faith given to you one day it would be pointless. [QUOTE][B]If one already believes in god than god doesn't have to appear to one since there is no need to prove god's existence to one who already believes.[/QUOTE]I say: that is completely circular...ok, if I don't believe (which I do not) then I am not here to prove my faith...so what are you doing here?gene90 says:
One thing that bothers me about atheism is the position that it is ok for you to not bother looking into religion because, if there is a God, you just assume that He will walk into your office one day and introduce Himself. Basically, it is an excuse to be lazy.I say: To put it mildly...horse caca! One, atheism is not a single position..it is as varied as those who are atheist...it is not some monolithic culture or religion. Second, why do you assume that atheists have not "looked into religion"? I looked into several and concluded none have merit. As an atheist I do not sit around waiting for a mythical god to come and prove he/she/it exists. I don't have a shred of evidence that there is one so I don't waste time thinking about it.gene90 says:
A common (and incorrect) belief amongst non-theists is that faith is something some people are born with and the rest have no hope. That's not true. The prophet Alma from the Book of Mormon:My guess is that some of you are also walking around with incorrect definitions of faith. Faith is the "hope for things unseen" not necessarily perfect, absolute knowledge.I say: A common and incorrect belief among theists is that they know what the correct definitions are and that everyone should agree with their version.gene90 says:
By the way, something else you don't realize: you don't need a physical manifestation of God to know that God is there, you just need to feel the Holy Spirit. It will confirm what is true. But manifestations, with very few exceptions, only happen to the extremely faithful and usually then only in holy places (temples).I say:
You could replace God in your sentence with UFOs or Elvis and it would be the same.gene90 says:
I hate to disappoint you, but even the atheists here really aren't eligible for Hell though they will be held accountable for their own sins.I say: Wow, there is an eligibility test for hell? Is it like the GRE's?cheers,
Mammuthus

[QUOTE][B]Christianity is not about 'ordinances'[/QUOTE][/B]You don't practice baptism? What about marriage? [QUOTE][B]and geneologies[/QUOTE][/B]I guess that makes Elija's return, as mentioned in Malachi, completely pointless doesn't it? [QUOTE][B]Read the New Testament for statments on that in black and white. The NT did not wipe away a single jot of the OT but boy your BoM wipes away great slabs of both![/QUOTE][/B]I can't help it if Christianity, during the dark years of apostasy in which there were no prophets upon the Earth and in which time "many plain and precious things" were lost from the Bible, began to use the interpretations of man in favor of God's truth.

[QUOTE][B]An all-knowing god would already know if I had faith or not.[/QUOTE][/B]Perhaps you will notice the frustration as I type this post. It is like explaining cyclothems to a YEC that has never had an elementary school science course.God does not hurl you into Hell if you do not have faith. You are not punished for some lack of faith. You must have faith to find God, in this world, and in the afterlife. You will require faith to communicate with God: the faith that God exists in the first place and the faith that God has forgiven you your sins. If you do not have the first then you will not find God in the end. Without the second you may find God but you will not be able to stand in his presence, it will be too painful for you to know all of your faults before God when you yourself have a perfect knowledge of your own earthly existance.Earth is a place for your faith to be tested and grown in preparation for that. [QUOTE][B]This was the entire purpose of why Christ suppositely died on the cross so that ALL of our sins (past, present, and future) would be forgiven.[/QUOTE][/B]You have to be repentant for that. Part of being repentant is that you struggle to sin no more. "Once saved always saved" is a false notion. Also, to be a follower of Christ requires more than believing in Christ, you must try to become like Christ. And you must endure. [QUOTE] [/B]I'm responding to the fellow who asked for a physical manifestation of God. That's unfortunate if my perspective offends you but it stands. Also, it is unfortunate if people become atheists because they didn't like their parents upbringing. However the choices they make are their own, if they do not find the church then they are not well prepared for what will happen in the afterlife. Also unless you try every religion out there first you cannot soundly conclude that no church is true. Therefore I think atheism, however you look at it is a sham. I have some respect for agnosticism because at least they are honest to themselves about it. [QUOTE][B]You are born to trust and accept everything your parents tell you.[/QUOTE][/B]No no no that's not the way it should be. You have to develop your own personal testimony. Your parents can teach you but have to build your own faith and ultimately decide for yourself. By the way I wonder how much you know about "Mormons" and I wonder where your information is coming from. [QUOTE][B]As I had said that is circular reasoning.[/QUOTE][/B]Keep telling yourself that if it keeps you away from actually putting forth an effort and knowing the truth.What can I say, other than that spiritual witness brought me from agnosticism to full faith so I know it works, regardless of what you might think of the quality of the argument. Further I find it obvious you haven't tried it. [QUOTE][B]Hell is an invention of the Church to keep little children in line. The First Christians didn't believe in either a hell or a devil. To them it was either heaven or the GRAVE. To them this was a greater punishment than anything which modern Christianity had come up with with its revenge mentality[/QUOTE][/B]Did you even read the post you are replying to? It is a common courtesy, you should try it.

Three replies so far, two down, one to go. [QUOTE][B]ok, if I don't believe (which I do not) then I am not here to prove my faith...so what are you doing here?[/QUOTE][/B]I'm here to grow my faith. You're here for the same but what you do is your choice and you will be held accountable for it. [QUOTE][B]I don't have a shred of evidence that there is one so I don't waste time thinking about it.[/QUOTE][/B]Because you are not looking you are sitting around in your office waiting, and since God didn't walk right up to you you assume there isn't one. Isn't that about right? You were the one who asked for a physical manifestation, I'm arguing about how absurd that is even if there is a God. [QUOTE][B]A common and incorrect belief among theists is that they know what the correct definitions are and that everyone should agree with their version.[/QUOTE][/B]I say that if you won't agree on a simple definition you shouldn't have continued replying until the issue was resolved. It only wastes my time, and I feel obligated to reply to all of you. The frustration on my end is continuing to build. [QUOTE][B]You could replace God in your sentence with UFOs or Elvis and it would be the same.[/QUOTE][/B]They don't have the holy spirit. Nor do they produce works.
Besides if you were actually interested you might try Alma's experiment and find out for yourself. [QUOTE][B]Wow, there is an eligibility test for hell? Is it like the GRE's?[/QUOTE][/B]As hard-headed and frustrating you people can be you don't know enough to be sent there. The more knowledge of God you have the more you are accountible for.Trust me though, you're going to stand trial for lots of things and testimonies will be given against you but you won't be thrown into the Outer Darkness.

Originally posted by gene90:Perhaps you will notice the frustration as I type this post. It is like explaining cyclothems to a YEC that has never had an elementary school science course.That goes without saying. But you are assuming that I have never had any exposure to religion. You couldn't be more wrong, yet again. I lived in a house that was the first Irish Catholic Church in our town and my family donated land so that a new church could be built and had thier home moved so the land it was on could be used to build a youth centre as well.God does not hurl you into Hell if you do not have faith. You are not punished for some lack of faith. You must have faith to find God, in this world, and in the afterlife.Irrelevant. This is just your version of it. What makes you right and every other Christian wrong? It it just because Smith had a "vision" of stealing those "plates" and murdering those guards? But, hey, it isn't murder when you do it in your god's name.
And we all know how accepted Morons are in the Christian community at large. You will require faith to communicate with God: the faith that God exists in the first place and the faith that God has forgiven you your sins. If you do not have the first then you will not find God in the end. Without the second you may find God but you will not be able to stand in his presence, it will be too painful for you to know all of your faults before God when you yourself have a perfect knowledge of your own earthly existance.In other words you first must believe and therefore there is no reason for your god to prove his/her/its existence to you. Circular reasoning.Earth is a place for your faith to be tested and grown in preparation for that.Why?You have to be repentant for that.Nope. If we have to repent than there was no reason for him to "sacrifice" himself. A real sacrifice would have been if he had stayed dead, but than again there wouldn't be Mormons now since he wouldn't have been able to visit North America right after he suppositely rose from the dead.Part of being repentant is that you struggle to sin no more. "Once saved always saved" is a false notion.That is your version. Also, to be a follower of Christ requires more than believing in Christ, you must try to become like Christ. And you must endure.We must be god-like? Isn't that blasphemy?I'm responding to the fellow who asked for a physical manifestation of God. That's unfortunate if my perspective offends you but it stands.The "evidence" you offer is no different than if I had said that it was a Big Blue Banana which created the universe and be just as valid as your assertions. Also, it is unfortunate if people become atheists because they didn't like their parents upbringing.Here you are wrong yet again. You seem to mistakenly believe that people become atheistic just because they want to rebel against something. Most atheists based their "choice" on reason ad careful thought. However the choices they make are their own, if they do not find the church then they are not well prepared for what will happen in the afterlife.Do you have any credible, verifible, or unbiased evidence for the existence of this so-called "afterlife"? Also unless you try every religion out there first you cannot soundly conclude that no church is true. Therefore I think atheism, however you look at it is a sham. I have some respect for agnosticism because at least they are honest to themselves about it.Pascal's Wage.No no no that's not the way it should be.Rarely is the real world what many think it should be. Another point of this thread and why they create gods and religions.You have to develop your own personal testimony. Your parents can teach you but have to build your own faith and ultimately decide for yourself. By the way I wonder how much you know about "Mormons" and I wonder where your information is coming from.I have a copy of the Book of Mormon I got directly from LDS, in fact it is the hard cover edition.Keep telling yourself that if it keeps you away from actually putting forth an effort and knowing the truth.Practice what you "preach".What can I say, other than that spiritual witness brought me from agnosticism to full faith so I know it works, regardless of what you might think of the quality of the argument. Further I find it obvious you haven't tried it.You can get the same effect from doing psychotropic drugs as well. In fact that is how they had their religious "visions" in biblical times as well.Did you even read the post you are replying to? It is a common courtesy, you should try it. Any version of hell is no different than when parents use the boogyman to scare their children into behaving.[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-04-2002]