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Author Topic:   What to believe......
Hal Jordan
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 174 (280290)
01-20-2006 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by mike the wiz
01-20-2006 11:06 AM


MEME free zone
My only fear for you is that you will be easily duped by religious whackos, because of your desire to believe.
You must only believe if you are genuinely convicted, independently.
That is a fear of mine as well, but I think I am jaded just enough to prevent that from happening .
For your own sake, I would advise not having a religion at this stage. You sound unsure as to why you even believe. You also sound like a decent human being to me, who doesn't need religion anymore.
Thanks for the compliment, and the advice, although I'm sure that I am not seeking a religion so much as trying to make sense of something; maybe that will lead me to religion (but I do not consider paganism a religion so much as a philosophy. There are no leaders, no texts, no dogma to follow at the risk of excommunication), and if it does, I have learned quite fast to listen to my gut.
My gut is telling me something, but I am unsure what.
Quite remarkabley, I would suggest you return to atheism, as you are in danger of memes.
Mike, that is most amazing. I am not sure if you are a True Christian (:-)) or not, it does not matter to me. But your post indicates that you have a geniune interest in my well being and that touches me.
I think though, that I have retreated to that which I know, and that is self reliance, not a belief in the invisible gods, at least until I resolve the matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by mike the wiz, posted 01-20-2006 11:06 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by mike the wiz, posted 01-20-2006 3:17 PM Hal Jordan has not replied

  
Hal Jordan
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 174 (280291)
01-20-2006 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by crashfrog
01-20-2006 11:38 AM


Thanks
Added the 'A', thanks Crash.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by crashfrog, posted 01-20-2006 11:38 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Hal Jordan
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 174 (280294)
01-20-2006 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by purpledawn
01-20-2006 11:12 AM


Re: Paganism
Path, the pagan term for one's own reality/ destiny I suppose.
Actually, it was reading up on my Indian heritage that led me to research paganism.
I do agree with you that maybe ritualistically observing nature may be contrived or somewhat forced. I do not want to do that, or feel that I have to really do anything except enjoy the sunrise, breathe in the fresh air (when I'm not smoking) and listen to the sounds of wildlife.
You along with everyone that has posted has given be definate food for thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by purpledawn, posted 01-20-2006 11:12 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 49 of 174 (280295)
01-20-2006 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Hal Jordan
01-20-2006 11:54 AM


Re: Paganism
see. i see the words wild and untamed as good things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-20-2006 11:54 AM Hal Jordan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-20-2006 12:52 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 50 of 174 (280297)
01-20-2006 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Hal Jordan
01-20-2006 11:13 AM


Re: Nail, meet head....
heh. you have to remember. i was almost a fundie at the time i felt that.
i do not believe in pentacostal type stuff. but that's just me. i do believe that inherent in nature is the force of life. whether that is god breathed or not, it is very powerful though not understood. i believe people have the ability to heal themselves sometimes. i believe that people can accomplish amazing things. i don't understand what i felt nor do i want to. i simply want to investigate and embrace it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-20-2006 11:13 AM Hal Jordan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-20-2006 1:06 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
Hal Jordan
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 174 (280298)
01-20-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by macaroniandcheese
01-20-2006 12:45 PM


Re: Paganism
Not that I think they're bad, but more than a few people have used these same words to describe pagans before and it was not in a kind way.
Not that I'm thin skinned; it just reminded me of the past.
Brenna, if I am not being too personal, do you follow a particular faith? If so, I am not asking what it is, just how did not come to the conclusion that it was 'right'?
It seems to me, that as close as I feel toward paganism, it is merely empowerment. No real magic (whatever real magic is supossed to be), no real gods or goddesses, just that which exists within. Maybe our inner strength suprises some people and they cannot believe that is is actually 'themselves', so they transfer this awareness to a god/godessess persona, and then deify it.
I don't know, but why after all these years am I somehow drawn to believe that which is only believed on faith?
Could be that there has to be more than this (I have heard that before!) and I want some kind of order.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-20-2006 12:45 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-20-2006 1:04 PM Hal Jordan has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3992
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 52 of 174 (280301)
01-20-2006 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hal Jordan
01-18-2006 9:39 AM


Hi, Hal.
I've shared some of your experiences, though in different decades and at different stages of life. In particular, I can identify with religious belief dissipating in the face of honest questions and clear perceptions.
Raised in a Southern Baptist community in the Bible Belt, of course I attended Sunday School as well as Sunday services regularly. I was a precocious reader, and by the age of 9 or 10 I had read the entire Bible twice, and many sections over and over. Some of the Bible matched my own awakening spirituality, but much of it seemed...off.
My first distancing from Christianity began with my questions: How could Adam have been sin-free before the apple if he was capable of disobeying? Why would he disobey unless he was likely to--he must have been made that way--wouldn't making him that way be the truly Original Sin? Why would God send she-bears to kill 40 children because they teased a prophet about being bald? Was that the prophet's decision, or God's? And how could that be fair and right? Why would a righteous man turn his daughters over to a mob? Hindu kids in India believe in Krishna; if they'd been born here, they'd believe in Christ: just because they've heard a Christian missionary speak, they are doomed to Hell? And, speaking of Hell, what act by a flawed creature, one of God's children, merits an eternity in torment? We imprison parents who act that way.
Etc.
In my experience, believers encourage questions as long as you don't ask hard questions, and as long as their answers satisfy you. Once you persist with questions, you move rapidly on the tally sheet from the Us to the Them column.
At age 10, I was banned from Sunday School for continuing to ask skeptical questions and to reject inadequate answers.
But the background of all this, I believe now, was the lack of evidence in the efficacy of Christianity. I saw no signs of betterment in the devout; in fact, the lot of them were the same racist, tax-cheating, wife-beating, child-abusing, hypocritical adulterers as those Satan Spawn Catholics, Jews, and Unbelievers.
Their hearts may have been filled with love, but it was mostly self-love, and it mostly fueled self-righteousness. The doctrine of salvation by grace rather than works seemed mostly useful in explaining why they did no good works, since there was no grace about them that I could detect.
At the same time, I was experiencing states of consciousness I'd now call transcendent or mystical, moments of oceanic consciousness, a communing rapture with nature from leaves of grass to stars, that so took me out of myself that I could later think, "So that's what it's like just to Be, without a name or body or neighborhood," because the experiences were profound enough to remove all awareness of self, name, place, body...
Trees can still make me weep with joy. My preacher thought my "daydreams" were Snares of Satan.
I don't know what they were, or are, but I believe they are good, and good for me. They launched me into decades of spiritual and philosophical reading, thinking, exploring, meditating, traveling, seeking. Those experiences turned me into a poet, because I had to invent a language with which to talk to myself about them. They have given me a perspective that is, at least in some ways, outside of time and self.
At present, I call myself an agnostic or atheist, depending on how irritated I am with doctrine-spew.
But there is something about the world.... God? Creator? I don't know. I do know that the universe is vast and old beyond our powers to comprehend: learning notations for those incredible dimensions is not the same as understanding them.
If there is a God, and if, from our tiny morsels of vision and understanding, any of us have said something true about God, it was likely by chance. The Gods that humans have proposed so far are all Big Daddies or Big Mommies, good and bad, which I believe says more about us than gods. Whatever God may exist would, I think, be more strange and mysterious than we have imagined or could imagine. In the face of that mystery, to hear any believer insist their much translated, emended, amended, adumbrated pastiche of human writings is the perfect word of God (and only properly interpreted in their culture, too, of course) makes my eyes widen and glaze. So proud and so sure!
I, too, have found paganism attractive at times. While some would term it primitive religion, I prefer to think of it as primeval--the expression of spirituality by humans before the State looked upon the ecclesiastical control knobs and found them good.
I'd say keep thinking and feeling. If you feel moved to do so, seek, but don't just read a few books about other beliefs and kid yourself that you've exhausted them--I recall "seekers" in the 60s who would read the Tibetan Book of the Dead, burn some incense, and chant a few mantras before declaring they had "done that." Years later they boast about their time of spiritual quest when they never left the cocoon of their own time and place.
Read primary texts of the world's great religions, mystics, and philosophies, and if one of them sings out to you, go deeper: read more, find a community for discussion, visit that culture's home, etc.
Or, like me, just get a bit more comfortable with feeling but not knowing.
Walk in beauty, Hal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-18-2006 9:39 AM Hal Jordan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-20-2006 1:28 PM Omnivorous has not replied
 Message 58 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-20-2006 1:30 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 53 of 174 (280302)
01-20-2006 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Hal Jordan
01-20-2006 12:52 PM


Re: Paganism
i consider myself a christian. but i don't really know what to do with it. i think i haven't changed my title out of comfort and the futility of titles themselves. if god is god of all, what difference does it make what you call yourself?
i think i'm a henotheist because i see the god portrayed in the old testament as a regional deity due to the characteristics he is described with. i believe in natural retribution and moderation and such and i'm getting more into studying buddhism. i'm interested in ancient druidism but there is almost nothing i've found on it and neopagan druidism makes me want to gag. i fear all was destroyed in the church ordered burnings. but maybe not. i don't have time for it now though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-20-2006 12:52 PM Hal Jordan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-20-2006 1:12 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
Hal Jordan
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 174 (280303)
01-20-2006 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by macaroniandcheese
01-20-2006 12:50 PM


I require pizza
i do not believe in pentacostal type stuff. but that's just me. i do believe that inherent in nature is the force of life. whether that is god breathed or not, it is very powerful though not understood. i believe people have the ability to heal themselves sometimes. i believe that people can accomplish amazing things. i don't understand what i felt nor do i want to. i simply want to investigate and embrace it.
The world according to Hal_Jordan (as of today): The experiences that I had as a Christian were the supernatural experiences that I can have as a pagan, in other words, they come from the same force.
I hate labels, but pagan is the closest way to describe how I feel; yet atheist is the way I believe toward the idea of gods. But I do believe in energy, as I understand it, but have not seen any evidence that I can manipulate it.
I feel so stupid typing this!
A day does not go by that I do not try to move something (a cup, an ashtray, a piece of paper) with my mind. How many times have I done it? 12
No, not really; I have not done it at all. Not even close. Maybe this energy cannot be used in that way, I don't know. Still, I feel that it exists.
No worries, I am not going to join a cult, shave my head and wear robes.
At least not until it warms up!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-20-2006 12:50 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-20-2006 8:15 PM Hal Jordan has replied

  
Hal Jordan
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 174 (280304)
01-20-2006 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by macaroniandcheese
01-20-2006 1:04 PM


I am what I am...what am I?
I have an equal disdain for labels, too. They do make it easier to have a discussion as long as the definitions of the labels being used are explained and agreed upon, however.
I tend to think that god is the name of the force that exists within us and outside of us, not sure what the Buddhists call it. Studying Theosophy led me to Buddhism, which led me to Thelema, which led me to paganism. But paganism comprises such a large umbrella of beliefs, that it is almost a pointless label.
I have always meditated, but called it prayer as a Christian' now I sit or lie still and just listen. Of course, I am probably talking to myself and I am just learning to really silence the ego and listen to what I really need to do.
Or I am suffering from a psychotic episode brought on my lack of sleep.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-20-2006 1:04 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 01-20-2006 1:24 PM Hal Jordan has replied
 Message 74 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-20-2006 8:12 PM Hal Jordan has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 174 (280309)
01-20-2006 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Hal Jordan
01-20-2006 1:12 PM


Re: I am what I am...what am I?
That's the key. Be you. That's all that can be expected.
But try to be your best.
This message has been edited by jar, 01-20-2006 12:25 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-20-2006 1:12 PM Hal Jordan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-20-2006 1:37 PM jar has replied

  
Hal Jordan
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 174 (280311)
01-20-2006 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Omnivorous
01-20-2006 1:01 PM


Double Post
This message has been edited by Hal Jordan, 01-20-2006 01:31 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Omnivorous, posted 01-20-2006 1:01 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Hal Jordan
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 174 (280313)
01-20-2006 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Omnivorous
01-20-2006 1:01 PM


Omnivorous -
Absolutely wonderful; I think that you and I as well as countless others have walked this same path.
People that really wanted to seek and find that which cannot be described with mere words, only to be have 'it' defined for us and boxed up (like my feelings on organized religions, although I am sure their intentions are good).
I had simular rejections of the bible and dogma, not that I feel that I am smarter than most Christians; maybe just looking at it from a different perspective.
This part of your post was interesting:
At the same time, I was experiencing states of consciousness I'd now call transcendent or mystical, moments of oceanic consciousness, a communing rapture with nature from leaves of grass to stars, that so took me out of myself that I could later think, "So that's what it's like just to Be, without a name or body or neighborhood," because the experiences were profound enough to remove all awareness of self, name, place, body...
I wish this would happen to me; I take then desire does not factor in. Maybe my level of concentration needs to improve?
Or, like me, just get a bit more comfortable with feeling but not knowing.
Hopefully I will get there; I just need to resolve a few things first. Thanks again, I will take your words to heart.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Omnivorous, posted 01-20-2006 1:01 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Omnivorous, posted 01-20-2006 2:46 PM Hal Jordan has replied

  
Hal Jordan
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 174 (280315)
01-20-2006 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by jar
01-20-2006 1:24 PM


That's the key. Be you. That's all that can be expected.
But try to be your best.
Thus the confusion; am I really a pagan as it's defined? I think I know who I am, but obviously I do not have a good handle on it.
Even more frustrating, is why did this happen after years of not believing?
Christian friends of mine say that it's God trying to bring me back to the fold. I do not believe that; I didn't leave Chrisianity out of anger or pain' I left because it did not make any sense...still doesn't. I mean the over objective does, to a point, but I am certain that the biblical God is not calling me back. But then I think that the biblical God was actually a case of mistaken identity.
Mybe I was worshipping myself and when I was praying I was giving myself courage to fix the problem I was praying about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 01-20-2006 1:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 01-20-2006 1:43 PM Hal Jordan has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 60 of 174 (280317)
01-20-2006 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Hal Jordan
01-20-2006 1:37 PM


Remember, if GOD exists, GOD exits even if 100% of the people thenk she doesn't exist.
If GOD does not exist, then GOD does not exist even if 100% of the people believe It does exist.
The Map is not the Territory.
I think I know who I am, but obviously I do not have a good handle on it.
Anything you come up with will only be a belief. If it leads you towards a better, more successful life, then enjoy it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-20-2006 1:37 PM Hal Jordan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-20-2006 2:06 PM jar has replied

  
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