A Model of the Trinity--in a Basketball Arena?

God does not need to prove anything to us. On the contrary, we do. Through the Crucifiction, He got on His shoulders all of our sins. Through the resurrection, He has beaten death and has therefore given us hope of eternal life in the permanent presence of God.
God is not cruel, nor dumb. He does not send us straight to hell nor paradise. He has given us free will to choose our own path. We are the ones who decide. The moment we renounce Him, He respects us and leaves us on our own. If He didn't let us choose, we would be puppets.
As far as God's love is concerned, we are playing with words again. I am refering to the ultimate act of love that gives meaning to all others. How would He give us love if He didn't offer us the opportunity to defeat death? We can follow His footsteps, love God and others and accept our own personal cross, our own fight in life. The message can save because He defeated death and He has asked us to follow his footsteps. The incarnation and sacrifice are "degrading" acts, meaning that God did not have to do that, hide His glory in a human body, feel the needs of a human let alone suffer or die like one. He has never sinned.This message has been edited by dancer, 04-08-2006 06:54 PM

He has beaten death on our behalf.

I am saying that on the one hand I agree with you but why single out one death from so many? Why not all of them?lfen

I'm sure you know the answer I would give to this, Lfen, even if you disagree with it.

That really doesn't explain anything.God makes the rules. Why does His Son (a "part" of Him) have to die to satisfy His own rules? Why could He not "beat death" without Jesus dying? Why could He not say, "O grave, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?" and it would be so?

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The idea of a man being God is a puzzling concept. I can agree that Jesus was not some sort of superman. He was human in every way. Unlike us, however, He knew no sin. This indicates to me that He was unlike us. Some would say that He was a great moral teacher. That the example of His life was the message and the meaning---a message that has been distorted, abused, and capitalized on by generations of hucksters. Is it unimportant, then, if He is just another dead guy with great philosophies? I dunno. In Matthew, I read this:Wuld a mere man say such a statement to the men who have come to arrest Him? At this point, our great moral teacher either has an attack of egoism, or He is proclaiming something deeper. I will agree, however, that Jesus always pointed to the Father as the object of worship. Is it important that He lives today?? Or are you suggesting that if the message lives today that is enough? I would agree with you only if you agreed with me that the living word is the Holy Spirit...who lives today. The message in and of itself can't change us otherwise. IMHO, there may well be many paths up the mountain and it is important to do the best we can, but the message was that God came down the mountain to meet each of us where we are at...and empowered us to go and do likewise. Can't argue with you there! He IS a special man even today!

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Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

Yet, the gospels had Jesus doing thigns that were sinful. When Mary and his brothers went to see him. He offended his mother (see mathew 13), and he also destroyed other peoples property (driving pigs into the ocean, cursing a fig tree, overturning tables of money lenders and disrupting business). Those are sins.

to which Phat replied.

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I dunno. In Matthew, I read this:

NIV writes:

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Matt 26:50-56--Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
At that time Jesus said to the crowd, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.

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As I have said, Jesus during his life here on earth was but human. He had no powers that any other human does not have. This is just another supporting example. Jesus does not call up twelve legion of angels, he claims that GOD could do that. In addition, GOD would not even need twelve legion of angels as protection.GOD cannot be killed or even threatened by man.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Many Christians would say that the Buddha is "just another dead guy with great philosophies". Which is more important - the medium or the message? Is Jesus alive today in human form? Is He walking around heaven? Is He eating and sleeping?How about another analogy of the trinity? I don't think it differs much from the idea in the OP:I'm editing this message in plain text, with dBCodes and HTML embedded. When I submit it, it comes out on your computer with all the codes and tags rendered - so you see the colours, the fonts, the blinking lights, etc.Are those two separate messages? Or the same message in two different formats?The real message is embedded in both formats. The "Holy Spirit" would still be God in another format - or another version of the scoreboard in a convenient location. The information content is still the same.(And by the way, I believe that the "Holy Spirit" lives in all of us, not just in the "Chosen Few" who warm a pew on Sunday morning.) When the phone rings, do you sit there listening to it and thinking to yourself, "Oh boy! Somebody wants to talk to me"? Or do you pick up the phone to hear what they have to say?The message is the message, not the announcement that there is a message. I don't think of it as God "poofing" us with His magic wand to "empower" us.Since Adam and Eve, we have all had the knowledge of good and evil. We don't need a special second "empowerment" to tell us what we need to do.The message is that we are forgiven. God has been there and done that. He's wearing the t-shirt.The message is that we don't have to follow rituals - turn around three times while waving a chicken in the air, cut the lamb's throat from left to right, repeat mantras about being "washed in the blood" or "born again"....The message is that we have to do what is right.

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but YOU are the one who asserted that Jesus's death occurred partly so that God could show his love for us!If God does not need to prove anything to us then Jesus's crucifiction has nothing to do with God 'showing his love' and all that, right ? tell me more about this 'ultimate act of love'.I notice you also haven't answered my question: what did God give up with Jesus' sacrifice ? In Message 46 you've answered your own question

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We all know through our everyday experiencies that God show His love in many ways.

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are you now saying -again- that he can *only* show us love by 'defeating death' ?you appear to be going back and forth in your position.Can God show us his love without having to sacrifice himself or can't he ? which one is it ? No. the message saves on its own. 'Defeating death' has nothing to do with it and is something that Pauline theology later added on, based on Hellenistic influences (myths of Orpheus and Eurydice, Prometheus).Throughout the Synoptics it's pretty clear that the message saves on its own.Jesus's words and actions all conveyed the same message: Love God, love one another and you'll be fine.The sacrifice / atonement doctrine is a twisted perversion of Jesus's life and teachings added later by people who never even knew him for their own self-justifying needs.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

The concept of Jesus being God incarnate or being an ordinary man sent by God does not change the message, either way. I agree with you on that as well. I am currently pondering the meaning of some scriptures, however. We all can agree that Jesus was sent by God. We all can(or should) agree that Jesus was not God the Father.Most controversial scriptures show up in either the Gospel of John or in Revelation, which some say was written by the same person. Its one thing to pray that God be in you. Its another thing to pray that the love of God be in you and that I myself be in you.It is no mystery if what is being referred to is the Holy Spirit, however. When I talk to people about Jesus, my personality and relationship with them is part of the process that God uses to draw them towards Him. Obviously, Jesus did not mean that the folk who accepted the disciples would accept Jesus and by so doing, would accept God? (Or did He?) Sure sounds like a Holy Spirit flowin around in there some place! One issue about this scripture often arises with Jehovahs Witnesses, who believe that Jesus was Gods first created thing and was not God the Son. Alpha and Omega mean First and Last. So if He was dead, and is now alive, who is He?Unlike the Witnesss, I do not believe that Jesus was Michael the Archangel. Orthodox Christianity believes in the Trinity, by and large. There are still areas of disagreement between us and also between the Witnesses, but I personally try and focus on the agreement amongst all of us that the message lives on and that the message is that we are to be people of practical action rather than people of mysterious Gnostic revelations! This message has been edited by Phat, 04-09-2006 12:06 PM

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Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

This is a good question. If God by definition is all powerful, He surely could have reached humanity without going through the whole process of a Virgin Birth and a Son who died, right? I mean...God could create a million Sons and a hundred billion stars, right?I think that the mystery and the wonder is in the action of getting down to our level.It is one thing if a general sends a soldier as a messenger to you. It is quite another thing if a general sends someone who is personally very close to him, such as his own son.We could argue that nobody is special to God as we are so many ants to be swept off the driveway.It is quite another thing to realize that each of us are as special to God as if He Himself were our Father.

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Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

This is quite some basketball game we are having? Is communion being served as refreshments? Seriously, though---if you were talking to a group of people about matters of eternal importance (as opposed to hosting a business seminar or some such thing) and your Mother was waving at you to come over and see her, perhaps you could use the occasion as an opportunity to extend the concept of family to the entire room---which would not embarrass your Mother if she really knew you!As far as destroying property, Jesus may have felt that the property was of no real value compared to the lesson that He was teaching at the time. Perhaps if He had been arrested at the time, He could have paid the fine by catching another fish with a coin in its mouth!This message has been edited by Phat, 04-09-2006 12:20 PM

LOL! touche! I agree. It's Jesus's life and his human nature that matters, not his death. The moment Jesus was born fully human his death was inevitable. LIke thousands of others, it happened to be on the cross.He could have died quietly on his rocking chair in his front porch at the age of 94. The message and its impact would have remained the same.However, people like dancer assert that God made some kind of sacrifice so that he could bend his own rule and give us salvation.I never had anyone fully explaining to me how that sacrifice would work, what did God lose in the process and how one can sacrifice to oneself, among others.I suppose God does move in mysterious ways

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Jesus was human while living on earth?Phat responds

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NIV writes:

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John 17:26-- I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

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Its one thing to pray that God be in you. Its another thing to pray that the love of God be in you and that I myself be in you.

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It is no mystery if what is being referred to is the Holy Spirit, however. When I talk to people about Jesus, my personality and relationship with them is part of the process that God uses to draw them towards Him.

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How is that obvious? I don't even see how you find a reference to the Holy Ghost in there? John 17 is Jesus off by himeself praying to GOD. If you read it all he is saying is that he has tried to teach the message and that he's done all he can.You go on quoting parts of Matthew 10, but negelct those parts that actually seem to be direction. In Matthew 10 Jesus is once again talking about actions, things folk should do, and it closes with this statement: Again, it's actions Phat, not belief, nor profession, and not even big flashy miracles. Giving a cup of water to the thirsty is all that's needed.Once more, what does any of that have to do with the Trinity or if Jesus was human while alive here on earth?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion