Free Will and Biblical Prophecy: Are They Mutually Exclusive?

You don't give your God very much credit for intelligence do you.Cheers,
--Caldron68

But you're suggesting that he had no choice in the path that he created for man.If God is omniscient and lives outside of time (views all time as the here and now), then he knew the consequences of his actions before he set the system into play. He knew full well that he would destroy all life by flooding the planet. He knew full well that he would have to sacrifice his Son (himself in flesh) on the cross and he knew full well that he would have to return to Earth a second time in another attempt to clean up the mess that he created.Your assertion is that he had no other choice in the matter. That things could not have turned out differently. I simply do not agree. If I were omniscient and could see the outcome of my work before I started, I certainly would not start a system that I knew I would have to intentionally destroy through a flood. Especially if I am a kind, loving, compassionate God.The Bible says this about the flood:Genesis 6: 5 And Yahweh saw that man's wickedness was great over the face of the earth, and that all day the thoughts in his heart formed nothing but wickedness.
6 And Yahweh regretted having made man on the face of the earth, and his heart grieved.
7 And Yahweh said, "I will wipe man from the face of the earth, man, my own creation and also the animals of the field, and the creatures that crawl on the ground, and the birds of the air; for I regret having made them."And Yahweh saw that man's wickedness was great over the face of the Earth...... Well, Did God see this coming or not?It seems that the God of the Bible is NOT the omniscient being that you say he is. I'm sure you'll find some dodge around this, but the Bible clearly states that God saw (after the fact) that man was wicked and that he regretted having made man on the face of the Earth. His solution? Drown them all.If God is truly omniscient and saw the outcome of his actions before they were set into motion, a truly compassionate, intelligent God would not have taken this path.Cheers,
--Caldron68

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I'm pretty sure I only claimed that it was "possible" for a few people to have the capability to go against prophecy.. and if they did, then their Free Will will be removed.

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No, you suggested that only a few people HAD the free will that gave them even the possibility of going against prophecy Message 31

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However, if the prophecy can be made in such a way that this situation does not exist then Free Will is not removed.

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However, that does not address my original question. The issue is whether there is the possibility of going against prophecy. Even compatibilist formulations of free will would allow that much. In suggesting only a few people have that capability you are very much going against the whole concept of free will.If that possibility is not there, then it does not matter whether the prophecy is conveyed in a way which does not change our desires, since our desires do not truly control our decisions, which are fated not chosen.

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I am most certainly not ignoring such a thing. And I fully admit that if even the mere presence of the prophecy alters the "true free desires" of the subject.. then Free Will is removed.

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Yet your post did not truly consider the consequences. If that occurs free will demands that we must be able to act otherwise. If we cannot then free will is not removed- since we did not have it in the first place.

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You have yet to show anything that I am ignoring, you simply didn't give me credit for thinking about something I hadn't explicitly typed out yet. My posts are long already... if

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But you are still failing to consider my basic point that thinking about these unusual cases lets us consider what may be going on "behind the scenes"

Hi, Stile. Actually, I think a certain person's specific actions at some specific point (such as prophesying the flavor of ice cream Person A was going to choose) would be much more plagued by the randomness of free will than a general, broad prophecy like, "There will be a big war in the Middle East."Basically, I think God could make an immutable prophecy about people with free will so long as He is capable of seeing all possible alternatives of all possible decisions, and show how some things are bound to happen no matter how events play out. For instance, we are going to experience a major agricultural crisis due to overpopulation in the fairly near future (I don't know if this is actually an "immutable" fact, but let's pretend it is for the sake of this example).This way, God does not have to actually know the outcomes of every specific, future event, but can simply tell that some general condition is going to prevail, because there are so many independent actors that nobody can actually control it or stop it from happening. So, even in my "world of spontaneity," some prophecy would be possible.

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I'm Bluejay.Darwin loves you.

I understand a bit clearer now.Are you saying that "the ability to go against prophecy" is part of the inherent definition of Free Will?If so, then using this strict definition, I agree with you that Free Will is removed in all my scenarios. This is trivially true since the definition of an "immutable prophecy" is one where there is no possibility for the decision-maker to go against the prophecy (or that's how I've been treating it here, anyway).I would say at this point, that you are on the same track as Straggler... using a definition of Free Will that includes something I do not ascribe as fundamental to Free Will. And my same response would be "I do not accept this definition of Free Will". I would then repeat my own definition and ask you to point out what part of my definition is in error such that it is not Free Will.I really don't think that "the ability to choose between alternate futures" or "the ability to go against prophecy" is what defines Free Will. I find these attributes fall into place once we have defined the important aspects.I define Free Will as:The ability to get what you want from the situation presented given that no external being is interfering with your desires in any way.What about that statement is not Free Will?This statement describes the fundamental point of Free Will to me, and it does not include "the ability to go against prophecy". Why do you think that such an ability defines Free Will? Is it because you may want to go against prophecy? Because that certainly is included in my definition. If you wanted to go against the prophecy, and couldn't, I certainly agree that Free Will is removed. But if that desire does not exist, I don't see how the presence of an immutable prophecy removes Free Will. Why should such an additional restraint be put on the definition of Free Will?Added by Edit: I just wanted to point out that I have no formal training at all in such matters and your point above went right over my head. I have no idea what "compatibilist formulations of free will" entail, and therefore I do not see how they attribute to the topic. ...sorry, but I have to simply claim ignorance on this part.That said... I still don't see how my definition of Free Will is not acceptable.Edited by Stile, : Hiding from the compatibilist formualations and most other things I don't know

Fair enough, I have a bad habit of adding unrequired aspects to my descriptions.How's this?"I originally was simply looking for one situation, perhaps required to be sufficiently uncomplicated."I have no problems with deleting that "very small" part. And I can understand how "very small" may actually add complication instead of reducing it.

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Are you saying that "the ability to go against prophecy" is part of the inherent definition of Free Will?

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I am being more specific than that.The fact of the prophecy is additional information. If we have free will of any sort at all it must be possible in principle for that additional information to change the decisions we will make. If that is utterly impossible then we cannot have free will.Oh, and I don't have any formal training either. I have, however, read a fair amount around the subject and considered it fairly deeply on some occasions.

I am not saying it is not a problem. But it certainly is a different problem. Well once those beings who operate in real-time without an eternal perspective (i.e. us) are immutably informed of their choices before ever confronting that choice all possible future alternatives are effectively eliminated.The immutable knowledge of what will immutably happen interferes with the ability to actually choose in time as we perceive it and thus negates our ability to demonstrate free-will at that point.It could be argued that an eternal being passively watching all-time without interfering in any way does not cause this same effect. I am not entirely convinced but it is certainly less clear cut.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

In the case of propehcy there is no such thing as non-interference.If the prophecy is known to anyone then all the interference required has already been been applied. You can do nothing other than have chocolate ice cream. There may as well be no other flavours available.If there are no alternatives how can there be any choice?If there is no choice how can free-will exist?Can free-will exist in the absence of choice? That is the question that you need to answer.

Hi caldron68, Sure He had a choice.He could have programed everyone to do exactly what He wanted them to do.But there goes free will.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

So you are saying that our eternal omnipotent being knows what a given individual would have done in the same situation IF the prophecy was not in effect. So interfering in the realtime decision making capabilities of the individual in question by making the prophecy and thus negating all other possibilities makes no difference?Is that right?You do not actually disagree that prophecy eliminates all alternatives, all other possibilities? You do not disagree that choice has actually been eliminated in the strict and absolute sense?Is that right?You instead claim that in some alternate reality where the agent of free-will never actually existed it is known what they would have done in a given situation?Is that your version of free-will? How can an agent of free-will demonstate their free-will regarding a choice that they never actually encounter or a question that they are never asked?Your versuion of free-will suggests that we are pre-programmed with a response for any given situation and that whether we ever encounter that situation of not our response can be known and prophecised by an eternal being of some kind.That is about as un-free as it is possible to be surely?

Sure he could have... I believe that he could have created a path for man that allowed for free will and would not require mass murder through a global flood. That is if he truly is a loving and compassionate God.....The point of my previous post was that he could have done this if he is truly omniscient. Evidently he is not, and the Genesis 6:5-7 backs this assertion up. Now, would you like to address this point or are you just going to provide another flippant answer to this post too?Cheers,
--Caldron68

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Thanks for your understanding..."

We expect you to present your position via text messages posted here at the forum. With that text you can and should supply references (text preferred, but can include videos) to back up your position.Your message presents you as some sort of crank. Members are not going to bother watching videos unless you give them much more substantial reasons to do such.If you really feel you need to link to videos, how about cutting the number down to a specific few most relevant to the point you're trying to make? The masses of videos in your message essentially amount to little more that some variety of spam. Forum administration doesn't like or much tolerate spam.NO REPLIES TO THIS MODERATION MESSAGE (STANDING FORUM POLICY). Just improve the content quality of your messages.AdminnemooseusAdded by edit: A member has pointed out that you are very apparently the same person who started this topic. These two ID's will probably be merged into one. In all, you are very close to a suspension.Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See above.

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