What to believe, crisis of faith

Parasomnium put it extremely well in his response: the reason we think we are amazing is because we are amazable.But an eagle can see a rabbit on the ground from two miles up.A squid can make it's skin change color, complete with moving stripes and spots, in an instant and has a similar, but better eye design than humans, too.There is a toad that can be frozen, hard as a rock, with no apparent life signs, and then thaw and come back to life.Every creature on the planet is amazing.I agree that humans are quite special simply because we have this really big brain and are able to manipulate our envirnoment to an incredible extent.But to choose to believe that we are more important that any other life form on the planet to anyone but ourselves is just pure ego, in my mind.It's the tantrum that a child with low-self esteem throws when he isn't being constantly praised and told he's the most incredible thing in the universe.

quote:

---

Forgive the example but it does illustrate. Does the fact that a person is told about the birds and the bees, that they see the family dog give birth to puppies, that they see the sexual organs described in detail in their school science books in any way prepare them for the experience of an orgasm?

---

Yes, of course it prepares them.What you claimed before was that you had no knowledge of sex AT ALL.But of course, if you have sex ed, talk about it with knowledgeable people, etc. you have actually learned quite a lot about sex before you have it for the first time. Furthermore, there are sex shops around town, sexy imagery used in ads, films, fashion, etc., and hormones coursing through every classmates body at a certain point.You are immersed in a sexual culture, just as you are immersed in a religious culture, so you were well-primed to have a conversion experience.So don't try to tell me you were completely unaware of religion, living in Ireland. That's simply untrue, no matter how you try to spin it.

quote:

---

One of the 'experiences' I had was the sudden arrival and never to depart feeling of peace. Out of the blue without doing anything to get it I now knew everything was alright. Somehow, whatever worries I had carried up to that point, although still there, fell into insignificance compared to the relief this peace gave. Later I read about "peace which surpasses all understanding" and like a key in a lock the two matched together. From whence this peace? From God.

---

How do you know it's God?How do you know it's the particular God you imagine?

Are you saying that mans objective values are actually subjective? That reality isn't in fact reality? Because obejectively we are the most amazing things on the planet - by far and away. What else can even come close to us - even come into the same ball-park? That many folk have that impression of God would appear give some backup to the Bible verse that says we are made in Gods image and likeness

---

Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

quote:

---

Because obejectively we are the most amazing things on the planet - by far and away. What else can even come close to us - even come into the same ball-park?

---

How do you figure?This seems like subjective opinion to me.Our big brains allow us to manipulate our environment and create intricate technology.Physically, we are quite inferior to many other creatures. Take away our weapons, and we're tiger food, really.Take away our medical technology and we're at the mercy of bacteria, viruses, and childbirth.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-20-2005 09:09 AM

Ian, could you tell me how we can objectively be the most amazing things on the planet, if the only amazement-scale we have access to is our own subjective one? What other creatures have you spoken to, who also find humans the most amazing on this planet? Leprechauns?This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 20-Sep-2005 02:19 PM

---

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

I've "spoken" to my cat, in a sense, and she finds me pretty amazing--only in a different sense of the word. I have a tendency to spill things, and when I do, if I look at her, I intuit exactly what she's thinking: "I can't believe you did that, you old fool."My cat never spills anything. She can jump 6 foot up in the air flat-paw, and land among crystal knickknacks without disturbing anything.That would be like me jumping 36 feet upward flatfoot, if you figure proportionally according to the size of me, the amazing one.This whole concept of amazingness is not much of a philosophical point to hang your hat on.

In what way do these things give any inkling as to what an orgasm is like? What words could be used to describe it (given that the best that man has managed so far is..... "uuuurrrgghhh" The person who has been told all about sex will have the same experience of an actual orgasm as the person who is told nothing (somehow not being told doesn't seem to be an impediment to arranging the mechanics of instigating one). No amount of imagination prepares you for the complete unknown: the joy of having children, orgasms, death, killing someone...experiencing God If there is any spin to be taken it would in fact be that any knowledge was counter to what was actually experienced. Roman Catholicism in Ireland doesn't, I have subsequently found out, talk about personal relationship with God - priests and the church are the intercessors. God is remote.Plus..there are Christians in countries where the concept of God is completely different to that of the biblical God. They are Christians despite being persecuted and having all the reasons in the world not to be. Even confirmed athiests have become believers.

---

Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

I will, - if you can tell me objectively how the only amazement-scale we have is our own subjective one.

Yeah...but first the tiger has to take away our weapons.Draw up a list of every significant attribute of every animal and then, score out of ten, each individual animals attributes against the total amount of attributes; eg pigs ability to fly etc.We win....

---

Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

quote:

---

I have a tendency to spill things, and when I do, if I look at her, I intuit exactly what she's thinking: "I can't believe you did that, you old fool."

---

That is commonly known as "anthropomorphising."

quote:

---

Draw up a list of every significant attribute of every animal and then, score out of ten, each individual animals attributes against the total amount of attributes; eg pigs ability to fly etc.

---

Well, no, I think actually you need to do that chore, because you are the one claiming some objective truth here.You claim that humans are objectively superior in every way to every other animal on the planet, so please show me why you think that is.Be specific.

quote:

---

We win....

---

Like I said, how do you figure?Be specific.

I'm not even sure that humans would win if the sole criteria were intellegence. One of the remarkable things about the cephalopods is there ability to individually and independantly control the color and texture of upwards of twenty million skin cells. The sheer control, rapid, neurally controlled polymorphism, is far beyond anything even our technology can duplicate.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

OK...what is love? Is it with a capital "L"? Is He an It? (or a she? ) We know that the Bible says that God is Love. Humans have many ideas about the L word.Well, Aztraph, people see things relative to their experiences, beliefs, and trust. Some people go to church for years and never really know God. They merely believe in the story that they are being taught, feeling a type of commadarie among fellow churchgoers....the same commardarie that a Deadhead may have sought at a Grateful Dead concert. Warm, fuzzy, and usually human affection. "Save the Whales". Help the Tsunami victims....although love for other humans can go deeper....but IMHO not without Gods help.I believe that many, such as purpledawn, see God as a product of human imagination. They trust their own reasoning, other educated opinions from people who see through the shams of organized religions, and the fact that IF any genuine Christians exist, they are few and far between...a case in and of itself.For me, I knew "about" God all of my life. I also studied a bit about other beliefs, legends, and early human explanations. The day that I "met" God was in no way eventful except that I was changed from that moment onward. This is what many do not understand who have never experienced it. They say that God=Santa Claus, Shiva, or the Invisable Pink Unicorn. They would assert that my illusion was in my own mind. An "epiphany" if you will.epiph”a”ny \i-"pi-f-n\ n, pl -nies 1 cap : January 6 observed as a church festival in commemoration of the coming of the Magi to Jesus at Bethlehem 2 : a sudden striking understanding of something I believe that God finds us...we do not find Him. The scripture says that He who
began a good work in us will be faithful to complete it. In other words, God finds us, begins transformation, and completes the transformation. People only need to trust Him...rather than trying to be good. For me, I trust that I have met Him. I trust His Spirit..(sometimes) I am still learning to trust Him.Many good actions are done by people who profess no belief. They may rightly say that organized religion is a sham and a scam....an outmoded belief. They may be so rationally minded that they see no evidence of God. I am not worried about them, for I believe that God will find them and that they will have a chance at acceptance or rejection. I agree with Rahvin. There is no conflict as long as you realize that science DOES prove many things and that Knowing God (as opposed to merely knowing about Him) also PROVES many things. For some people, the mind is pure empiricism and the heart is all about friends and family. The human family, perhaps. For others, the mind is quite simple, yet the heart is fiery and fervant.Fundamentalists are quite unstable emotionally. There are fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalist Muslims, and fundamentalist atheists. It is best to diffuse your crisis by realizing that you do not have to make a choice based on human logic alone, nor on religion. You will know what to do, for you will have an inner unction to trust one of two things primarily.
1) Human wisdom
2) God.
Whichever path you feel drawn towards, by all means be honest and follow your heart. For me, I never began to trust God until I met Him. (In my soul) Wow...Rahvin said the same thing only better! I like Rahvin! 1noth”ing \"n-thi\ pron 1 : no thing 2 : no part 3 : one of no interest, value, or importance
2nothing adv : not at all : in no degree
3nothing n 1 : something that does not exist 2 : zero 3 : a person or thing of little or no value or importance
4nothing adj : of no account : worthless

​

Science needs measurements. Degrees of certainty. Empirical evidence. What about faith?

​

faith \"fth\ n, pl faiths \"fths, "fthz\ [ME feith, fr. OF feid, foi, fr. L fides] 1 : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty 2 : belief and trust in God 3 : complete trust 4 : a system of religious beliefs ” faith”ful \-fl\ adj ” faith”ful”ly adv ” faith”ful”ness n

​

NIV writes:

​

1 Cor 12:8-9- To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit...

​

Faith is given to us by God. I cannot have faith in the tooth fairy, for I have never met a tooth fairy. I cannot have faith in aliens, no matter what the statistical probabilities are, for I have never seen or interacted with them.

​

Some can not have faith in a God that they have never met. If you have met Him, keep up the relationship and go about your studies. No conflict, IMHO.

​

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-20-2005 09:20 AM

​

---

A youth is a person who is going to carry on what you have started. He will assume control of your cities, states, and nations. He is going to take over your churches, schools, and corporations. You may adopt all the policies you please, but how they are carried out depends on him. So it might be well to pay him some attention.

​

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them.

Well...hmmmmm(?) Just because I can't run as fast as a cheetah, I can now own a racecar. Put me and the cheetah on a level playing field, however, and then what do we have? Im not sure what the point is about humans being the smartest, best, and coolest. Besides...how many animals commit suicide? Sharks feel no remorse for random killing....neither do a few humans, although most would. Instinct is automatic. Maybe humans lost the instinct to trust and go with the flow. We have to "prove" everything!

I'm not so sure.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------