Heaven and Free Will

I remember seeing this touched upon briefly a while back (if I recall, it was in the Why do Christians make God out to be dumb? thread), but though I thought it was an interesting question it never really generated much response, being late in the thread, so I would like to post a separate topic for it.When presented with the question, "Why does God allow evil to exist in the world?" a common reply I've noticed is, "To enable us to have free will" or some variation of that statement. I also noticed, in the Moral Relativism thread, that some professed to believe that for every situation, there are no gray areas - any choice you make is either good or evil, nothing in between. For those who believe either of these - especially the former - the question I pose is this: If it is necessary for evil to exist to allow free will, how does this affect the concept of a heaven? Will there be no free will there? No need of it? Or does it exist in a different form, perhaps?(Personally, I don't believe that evil is necessary for free will, but that’s irrelevant - I emphasize this because I don’t want the thread to be pulled into off-topic discussion of this point.){Edit: Removed note to admin.}This message has been edited by Morte, 08-07-2004 12:52 AM

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

A very novel topic indeed, it will be fun to see how it plays out.Perhaps Heaven is like the phrase: In this life, one has exerted their free will to choose to obey the commands of God. You've chosen to use your free will to match God's will. In essense, making your will and God's will equal. In Heaven, your reward is always getting to do God's will.Just A Meager Thought
PM1K

I mention ahead of time that I don't mean to be argumentative, just curious. Discussitative, if you will.

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In this life, one has exerted their free will to choose to obey the commands of God. You've chosen to use your free will to match God's will. In essense, making your will and God's will equal. In Heaven, your reward is always getting to do God's will.

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But would it be absolutely necessary for you to do God's will? Say, for example, that you followed His laws all of your life despite having objections to some*. In other words, you've followed the letter of the law - perhaps in the hopes that you might later understand God's reasoning, perhaps because the need to disobey never occurred, perhaps because the need occurred but you didn't want to risk your eternal life - but you feel that the law didn't make sense in the first place. Or would you, upon entering Heaven and becoming a greater being, suddenly understand the need for such a law (more on this in a minute)?*IE: To take examples from my own line of thinking thinking, you feel that it is okay to lie under circumstances where it serves the greater good. Or you had an objection to the idea that mere thought can be considered sin since you can control actions, but cannot control your thoughts.Raises the question, would you get thrown out of Heaven (assuming evil were possible) if you disobeyed God's will, and if so could you be reconciled? Or perhaps you would get a couple of warnings about breaking the rules before suspension. I can't quite figure out how to phrase this, but it was part of what I originally meant to ask... if by entering Heaven you suddenly did see the reasons for God's laws that you found objectionable in life, would that really be free will? It seems to border on controlling thought so that you lose desire to follow what otherwise would have been your will (so basically, controlling your will anyway). If He convinced you of it, it would be one thing, but what if He just suddenly conjured the understanding of it into your head? (Anyone who understands what I'm trying to say here and can say it better, please do - I'm horrible with wording concepts in a way that makes sense to others.)

Well, I'm no Bible scholar, nor am I Christian, but here's a couple of ideas anyways.Our conscious thought here on Earth is a material property. We think and act like we do because of how we are here. If we go to heaven, nothing is to say we are anything like we are here. I know many Christians that think the soul just floats around in an ethereal form, and nobody really "sees" anyone else. If this is the case, what is to say our conscious mind will work anything like it does now? Perhaps heaven is just being eternally suspended in some void feeling nothing but pure bliss? If you ask me, the idea of "free will" is just something in our human nature calling out for control. It might seem only fair to have "free will" in heaven, but then, that's a completely human notion. If heaven is truly bliss, there will be no need for such a thing.There's my agnostic two cents .

The question of "freewill" in heaven is a good one. But what exactly *can* we do on earth? Let's be honest, we can only do what we are physically able to. If we "decide" to go to work, it's because we can physically go there (on legs) - or refrain.In heaven however - will our physical attributes be the same? We might have a hand to misuse, but without any concept of any laws similar to this universes, how effective would a hand be? Could I *shape* anything around me? Maybe there is a law there, which means that only freewill *good* things can happen. For example, if I tried to strike someone on the face - my hand might go "through" them. Just an idea. Yes. Or maybe freewill would be less effective there. Maybe we have less physical capability. Tis all speculation ofcourse, untill I get to go - and then I'll phone hell to give you the answer.(joke)

This thread topic is an interesting, mysterious and complex one. It is related somewhat to a topic I've been thinking about covering in another related but different thread topic concerning the mystery of good and evil relative to the universe.Your topic, imo, so far as the Bible is concerned has a lot to do with the forbidden tree in Eden.1. Why did God put such a tree in the garden? I will cover that in the OP of my new thread, but as to how it relates to freewill, it seems there was not in the mental capacity of Adam and Eve to know and to do evil. It was not that they had no free will, but that their mindset was so much in the image of God that the desire or will to do evil just wasn't in them. This was also true of Jesus, except that Jesus was born directly from the very Spirit of God and had he been in that garden would have dealt with the serpent just as he did in the wilderness temptations with Satan. He was not a created creature of God as was Adam and Eve.2. In Heaven there are two factors missing that were in the Eden. a. No free roving Satan in the universe anywhere nor his demonic empire. These will be in the eternal flames of Hell forever. Thus we read that they "believe and tremble." They are true believers of who Jesus was and of a literal hell. They fell down at the feet of Jesus when encountered by him. b. Likely no tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Only the tree of life which also was in the garden and the fruit of which sustained the partakers of it forever.So, imo, in Heaven there will be free will, but nothing to intice or cause the inhabitants to rebel or sin. The very presence of God will be so overwhelmingly wonderful that the desire of worship and devotion to him will prevail in that free will.

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Tis all speculation ofcourse, untill I get to go - and then I'll phone hell to give you the answer.(joke)

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Ah yes, but will your hand pass through the phone? (; You could always come visit me in Hell, I hear it's nice and tropical .

Doh, double post. Stupid connection ):. I hope Hell has T3's and LAN parties!This message has been edited by Glordag, 08-09-2004 05:36 PM

I remember Freddy Crueger's tongue came through the phone once. How relevant - since you'll look as well cooked as he is.

If Freddy is in hell, I might just have to convert and repent. He's one scary MFer .Just to sort of stay on topic, I'll pose another question. What do you think would happen to our memories if we go to heaven? What about dreams, will we still have them? If we retain our memories, I would think they would play a rather large role in our decision-making.

That's a good question. I simply haven't a clue though. I just can't figure it out - would we need to know? Shucks - I dunno, I guess the answer is , that Freddy is in hell.

Nice try (;. Now, if you could offer me irrefutable (sp?) proof that either A. Freddy is in hell or B. Heaven is nothing but beautiful, female redheads, then consider me Christian .Oh, and there would have to be cards, too. Then again, would I be able to lie in a card game in heaven? Hrmm...that could get really dull...

Well, Freddy is in hell - with all those red-heads.And if you're lucky, I'll let you clean God's bathroom.