Too Many Flaws with Evolution

quote:

---

Originally posted by gene90:
Seems kind of pointless to me. If the Creator is omnipotent then there is no need to observe. The outcomes would all be known before even beginning.

---

That is omniscient, not omnipotent. Nonetheless, if a Creator is omnipotent, there is no need to CREATE. The outcomes would be known before he began.

quote:

---

Finally if suffering existed without an ultimate justice the Creator would be allowing all sorts of pain needlessly for its own amusement.

---

And justice make it OK, when the Creator could have just left out the pain and suffering to start with? [QUOTE][b]Life ends up being like a really big Roman Colosseum where blood is spilt for the amusement of others. Of course, I would expect an Omnipotent Creator, who already knows who would win anyway, would more likely find some much more interesting (and incomprehensible) way to whittle away eternity, unless there were some charity involved (for us).[/QUOTE][/b]Why does charity make a difference?

quote:

---

That is true, and the just who do not know God are still rewarded in the afterlife, and their assignments are to live amongst others who are equally just and moral.

---

Can I get a chapter and verse?

quote:

---

The doctrine I adhere to is that all these people will be taught after the resurrection, and those that are righteous (or genuinely repentant) will go to the better place, and the remainder of the just who reject the gospel will go to a place much like Earth. The number of people who will fall into that category is enormous.

---

Ditto.------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

[QUOTE][b]That is omniscient, not omnipotent.[/QUOTE][/b]I am aware of that. I just thought it went without saying that it is rather difficult to be omnipotent without being omniscient. Maybe not necessarily impossible, but difficult. [QUOTE][b]And justice make it OK, when the Creator could have just left out the pain and suffering to start with?[/QUOTE][/b]Not without removing the possibility of growth for those created.Suffering is necessary to an extent because it allows wisdom and emotional growth, just as death is necessary to allow procreation and parenthood. The philosophy I adhere to is that life is a proving ground for souls rather than an end to itself. Some people will fall away completely (and reach Hell). Most will do respectably well and be rewarded in kind. A few will reach paradise. [QUOTE][b]Why does charity make a difference?[/QUOTE][/b]Charity or responsibility, or a general benevolence is probably the only reason the Creator would keep an interest in us. How much time have you spent feeding anthills?Of course, consistent tending to the creation is likely if we presuppose that we were created in the first place because there must be some reason we were created, as the outcomes would already be known.(Wondering why I think a proving ground is necessary? Because we do not know the outcomes and free will is important here.
Also see my references to growth.) [QUOTE][b]Can I get a chapter and verse?[/QUOTE][/b]Chapter and verse in what Scripture? I assume you mean the Bible. What difference does it make to one who does not believe the Bible?If you really want a ref see 1 Corinthians 14:40 on different degrees of glory in the resurrection, and if you like it others I can provide..

​

[This message has been edited by gene90, 07-10-2002]

quote:

---

Originally posted by gene90:
I just thought it went without saying that it is rather difficult to be omnipotent without being omniscient. Maybe not necessarily impossible, but difficult.

---

But the difference is important, towards the end of your message you state that we DO NOT know the outcome. Hence, god ain't omniscient.

quote:

---

Suffering is necessary to an extent because it allows wisdom and emotional growth, just as death is necessary to allow procreation and parenthood. The philosophy I adhere to is that life is a proving ground for souls rather than an end to itself. Some people will fall away completely (and reach Hell). Most will do respectably well and be rewarded in kind. A few will reach paradise.

---

This is a variation of the 'best of all possible worlds' line of reasoning. Problem is that if your God is omnipotent, then none of these reasons apply. God can do anything he wants, in any way he wants. Wisdom does not have to be linked with pain. God made us so that it does perhaps, but HE COULD HAVE MADE US DIFFERENTLY. Emotional growth doesn't have to be linked with suffering. Death is not necessary for procreation, simply because God did not have to make it that way. But he did... by CHOICE. That is just vicious.

quote:

---

Charity or responsibility, or a general benevolence is probably the only reason the Creator would keep an interest in us. How much time have you spent feeding anthills?

---

Not nearly as much time as I have spent destroying them, by accident or intent.

quote:

---

What difference does it make to one who does not believe the Bible?

---

I am discussing the Bible with you so it makes a difference.

quote:

---

If you really want a ref see 1 Corinthians 14:40 on different degrees of glory in the resurrection, and if you like it others I can provide.

---

I don't get it. I see nothing this reference that touches the subject.------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

[QUOTE][b]But the difference is important, towards the end of your message you state that we DO NOT know the outcome. Hence, god ain't omniscient.[/QUOTE][/b]From your own comment: "we DO NOT know the outcome". Now, what does what *we* know or not know have to do with God being omniscient? [QUOTE][b]God made us so that it does perhaps, but HE COULD HAVE MADE US DIFFERENTLY.[/QUOTE][/b]How? -- suggest an alternative that does not compromise free will and that you still have to earn growth-no free lunch, it is inferior to growth you accomplish for yourself. What if suffering is the only way to grow? Also, don't you think it is important to know how you respond to suffering? To know if you are really valiant or if you just shirk? You've forgotten my philosophy that life is a proving ground and not an end to itself. If life were without any kind of suffering you would be stunted. The familial bonds you form in life would be weak and have little meaning. Not to mention that you wouldn't have very much respect for the good having not known the bad. Knowing the good from the bad, I think you will realize, is an essential component of free will. [QUOTE][b]Emotional growth doesn't have to be linked with suffering. Death is not necessary for procreation, simply because God did not have to make it that way. But he did... by CHOICE. That is just vicious.[/QUOTE][/b]You've forgotten that our needs are redressed, justice is dealt, and paradise is returned in the end. Suffering is only a temporary thing for the just, and God Himself suffered so that you can have a shot at the happy land. Suffered, in fact, everything you could possibly suffer and did the same for everyone else. I hardly think this is vicious, I think God got the short end of the deal here. Another purpose of life, I'm not sure I mentioned is to prepare to meet God, and to become more like God. God suffered the Atonement and suffers today each time you make a wrong decision. How could you ever hope to understand God without a taste of the bitter cup for yourself?If God suffers, and we never did, then we could not relate to Him. [QUOTE][b]Not nearly as much time as I have spent destroying them, by accident or intent.[/QUOTE][/b]Same here. [QUOTE][b]I am discussing the Bible with you so it makes a difference. [/QUOTE][/b]Actually we were discussing my religion and personal philosophies (there is a distinction between the two, btw) not the Bible specifically. [QUOTE][b]I don't get it. I see nothing this reference that touches the subject.[/QUOTE][/b]Of course not. I gave you the wrong passage. But at least I know you looked it up. [QUOTE]1 Corinthians 15 KJV, speaking of the Resurrection [b]
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory[/QUOTE][/b]IE, not everyone is worthy of the same glory and there are different dwelling places for those.This is the best Biblical example of this, I could go on to extra-Biblical Scriptures but it would probably offend people.

quote:

---

Originally posted by gene90:
From your own comment: "we DO NOT know the outcome". Now, what does what *we* know or not know have to do with God being omniscient?

---

Oh... I see what you mean now. [QUOTE][b]How? -- suggest an alternative that does not compromise free will and that you still have to earn growth-no free lunch.[/QUOTE][/b]It is difficult to imagine, I agree, given that suffering is as common as it is in our world. I'm thinking in terms of games. These forums are an example. I learn. I think. I grow, but don't suffer. I have clawed my way to the top of several hacker-wargame sites driven by love of the game not propelled by suffering.What if suffering is the only way to grow?[/quote][/b]What if it isn't? As I began above, there are other ways to grow. Does this compromise free will? God, in our scenario, create us and our base psychologies. This in itself seems a bit of a compromise of free will--ie we are trapped inside those psychologies. Would a change in those psychologies compromise free will in a fundamentally different way? I think that it wouldn't. For example, take relationships. Remove the emotion of jealousy. We still have the experience of the relationship but not the pain of jealousy.

quote:

---

Also, don't you think it is important to know how you respond to suffering? To know if you are really valiant or if you just shirk?

---

Not if it simply doesn't exist. What point would there be?

quote:

---

The familial bonds you form in life would be weak and have little meaning.

---

I don't agree. Suffering erodes familial bonds more than strengthens it in my experience.

quote:

---

Knowing the good from the bad, I think you will realize, is an essential component of free will.

---

Only in our world-- harmful from not harmful. But isn't free will just choosing among options? No need to tie it to good and bad.

quote:

---

You've forgotten that our needs are redressed, justice is dealt, and paradise is returned in the end. Suffering is only a temporary thing for the just, and God Himself suffered so that you can have a shot at the happy land.

---

But it is all set up that way in the beginning. This make it feel very empty to me-- pointless.

quote:

---

Another purpose of life, I'm not sure I mentioned is to prepare to meet God, and to become more like God.

---

I think this makes the most sense to me of all of your arguments along this vein.

quote:

---

If God suffers, and we never did, then we could not relate to Him.

---

God suffering? Very strange idea to me, though I realize that the idea has had many manifestations. Honestly, I don't know how we could ever relate to God, lifetime of suffering or no.

quote:

---

Actually we were discussing my religion and personal philosophies (there is a distinction between the two, btw) not the Bible specifically.

---

Fair enough. [QUOTE][/b]1 Corinthians 15 KJV, speaking of the Resurrection [b]
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory[/QUOTE][/b]Interesting....------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

[QUOTE][b]It is difficult to imagine, I agree, given that suffering is as common as it is in our world. I'm thinking in terms of games. [/QUOTE][/b]Interesting point. But is a simulation the real thing? (Philosophical babble now, what is the difference between a perfect sim and the real thing? I venture a guess: the 'perfect sim' doesn't count. It lacks the real-world finality of...um...the real world. Hence the game is still not the same as reality. Safer, but not the same. Unless of course it is a game and we don't know it--and that is neither doctrine nor my opinion or philosophy; except that in a sense the righteous will be redressed, just as we can be relaxed after a computer game that didn't go so well.) [QUOTE][b]Does this compromise free will? God, in our scenario, create us and our base psychologies. This in itself seems a bit of a compromise of free will--ie we are trapped inside those psychologies. [/QUOTE][/b]Unless we are our psychologies. I am not saying that people who have mental disorders, brought on by physical defect, have souls like that, or will be like that in the resurrection, when all bodies are made flawless. I am saying that I don't think we could rewrite ourselves and remain the same--this seems like a fundamentally basic
premise. [QUOTE][b]Remove the emotion of jealousy. We still have the experience of the relationship but not the pain of jealousy.[/QUOTE][/b]But we also would not have reason to become more emotionally mature.
Jealousy also encourages monogamy, forces trust, and makes marital bonds strong. (It is a doctrine of my faith that marital bonds can be permanent) [QUOTE][b]Not if it (suffering) simply doesn't exist. What point would there be?[/QUOTE][/b]It is necessary for free will, to differentiate the good from the bad. If both choices are good, what is the point of that? Our great gift is free will, the right to choose our actions (and suffer penalties thereof). I should note that I believe that most (but not all) our suffering is brought on us by our own wrong choices. I consider it to be the necessity of that remainder that I am debating with you. [QUOTE][b]I don't agree. Suffering erodes familial bonds more than strengthens it in my experience.[/QUOTE][/b]The people involved can make the difference there, I *can* see how suffering can fragment a family. (In fact, free will can also fragment families even though it is a gift.) But in theory, the concept that someone near you could die tomorrow makes you give that person more attention and respect. When people become complacent then the bonds become weak. There are, of course, millions of other possible ways to weaken the bonds. [QUOTE][b]Only in our world-- harmful from not harmful. But isn't free will just choosing among options? No need to tie it to good and bad.[/QUOTE][/b]Free will *is* in itself just choosing among options. But we presuppose two very important concepts: justice and wrongdoing.I presuppose that harming innocents is wrong. I also presuppose that justice is necessary for people who do such. Doing bad things results in bad things being piled upon you, either temporally, spiritually, or both. This is because, in the Christian tradition, God is fundamentally (and necessarily) just. (Now this part is leading to Christ's Atonement, but I'll see if I can put that off a little longer). [QUOTE][b]But it (Gene90 presumes he means the Eternal Plan) is all set up that way in the beginning. This make it feel very empty to me-- pointless.[/QUOTE][/b]Maybe you could explain that a little further. The Plan brings me hope. [QUOTE][b]I think this makes the most sense to me of all of your arguments along this vein.[/QUOTE][/b]The concept of us trying to become more like God is actually doctrine, not my opinion or philosophy. I think I can find Biblical references.

​

[This message has been edited by gene90, 07-10-2002]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gene90:
[b]Interesting point. But is a simulation the real thing? (Philosophical babble now, what is the difference between a perfect sim and the real thing? I venture a guess: the 'perfect sim' doesn't count. It lacks the real-world finality of...um...the real world.[/QUOTE][/b]Sure, as its seen through the filter of this world, but suppose the game was the real world?

quote:

---

Unless of course it is a game and we don't know it--and that is neither doctrine nor my opinion or philosophy; except that in a sense the righteous will be redressed, just as we can be relaxed after a computer game that didn't go so well.)

---

But it can't be dismissed without reason, hence unless there is a reason to discount this option it stands as a option to a world with suffering.

quote:

---

Unless we are our psychologies.

---

Even so, God sets the stage; so every case would be equally effected. [QUOTE][b]Only in our world-- harmful from not harmful. But isn't free will just choosing among options? No need to tie it to good and bad.[/QUOTE][/b][QUOTE][b]But it (Gene90 presumes he means the Eternal Plan) is all set up that way in the beginning. This make it feel very empty to me-- pointless. [quote][b]Maybe you could explain that a little further. The Plan brings me hope.[/QUOTE][/b][/QUOTE][/b]I realize this is something of an atypical point of view, but for what its worth, it works like this. God sets up the planet and puts people on it. All created in minute detail, and presumably God knows the end of it all as well. So we run the obstacle course like rats in a maze. What's the point? Like I said earlier, why even create? God knows the end. He knows who will make it through and who won't. The whole experience seems rather pointless. Why not just create the final product-- heaven and hell-- and be done with it? I know, fairness and justice and all that; but God already knows the end. The end is going to be the same whatever happens. Fairness and justice really don't matter. [/B][/QUOTE]------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

[QUOTE][b]So we run the obstacle course like rats in a maze.[/QUOTE][/b]Some people seem to like running obstacle courses. I believe it is part of an event held every four years in a major city and that hundreds of millions of dollars change hands in the process... [QUOTE][b]What's the point?[/QUOTE][/b]What's the point in a universe where souls are made and then sent to Hell for what they would do if they had the chance? No free will. Nothing to strive for. People often wonder (Carl Sagan was one, I think) if the traditional Protestant gold-painted version of Heaven is really a nice place to be because there is nothing to do. No questions to answer, nothing to strive for. Such a place is really not fit for people is it? No, we really need a place like this one.While I can't speak for Heaven I do understand that there is more to it than sitting in golden rooms. [QUOTE][b]I know, fairness and justice and all that; but God already knows the end. The end is going to be the same whatever happens. Fairness and justice really don't matter.[/QUOTE][/b]Leaving out growth and free will.And how is reality a game? A game in that, if we keep high enough standards, our needs are redressed in the end?

quote:

---

Originally posted by gene90:
Some people seem to like running obstacle courses.

---

That may be, but the question was about my reaction to the issue.

quote:

---

What's the point in a universe where souls are made and then sent to Hell for what they would do if they had the chance? No free will.

---

Here is the crux of the matter though. If God knows the end and can create Hell populated with souls just as if it had indeed happened, then free will really makes no difference. Struggle and strive all you want the end is the same. Leaving growth and free will in or throwing it out, it doesn't make any difference. This is a serious problem with the conjoining of an omnipotent creator and the concept of free will.

quote:

---

No, we really need a place like this one.

---

Speaking obviously without first hand experience, I prefer this one.------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

[QUOTE][b]Here is the crux of the matter though. If God knows the end and can create Hell populated with souls just as if it had indeed happened, then free will really makes no difference. Struggle and strive all you want the end is the same.[/QUOTE][/b]It seems to me that being cast into Hell or allowed into Heaven without a Creation is skipping an important part. If God went through the trouble of creating us spiritually, I think that creating us physically is just the next logical step. If God were in a hurry to end the Creation why were we created (spiritually) in the first place? Also this whole free will thing, as you will remember, is a gift...something we get because the Creator is benevolent. It is a favor to us, just as the creation itself was a sort of favor to us.(This discussion is winding down, I think I've been over just about everything.)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gene90:
[b] [QUOTE] (This discussion is winding down, I think I've been over just about everything.) [/b][/QUOTE]I agree. It has been truly enjoyable and quite fascinating. Thank you.Have you ever heard the quote from 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' which run like this: The universe is a figment of its own imagination? There is a branch of Jewish mysticism wherein much the same is true. God creates to know himself.------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

Thank you also. I'm sure we'll debate over something similar in the future.No, I haven't heard the quote. I've been meaning to read that series for a while now.

Okay Ringostore,
I was expecting a somewhat educated message and was sorely disappointed. Your subject of your message was too many flaws in evolution. Where or where in your message did you "attempt" to address the flaws of evolution? I see that you stated in your message that "evolution has been so flawed and fabricated". Where are the flaws and fabrications? And evolution is based on facts and observable data. Is all this fabricated? Or do you not like the thoery becuase it conflicts with your beliefs? Are you that close-minded just becuase something does not agree with your belief you just say that is is full of errors and dismiss it?
Okay, creationism is just a belief that has no substantial proof outside the bible. Can you prove creationism outside your bible and your beliefs? I really do not think so, becuase you are so deep in the fundamental muck that really turns me off to most Christians.
No, creationism is not hard to understand as a beautiful story and a myth. Heck the bible is full of inconsistencies, how can we accept this as true?
Surely, you are not that ignorant to refute empirical evidence in place so some unproven "cherished belief". Or I could be wrong.
If you can come up with any flaws of evolution, please oh please post them. Otherwise, please refrain from allowing us to know that you are indeed ingnorant, instead of us wondering whether you are or not.
Have a nice day.------------------
Anne C. McGuire
Student at Texas Tech University
Mathematics, Cell and Molecular Biology, and Piano Performance major

"I was expecting a somewhat educated message and was sorely disappointed."
--I wouldn't start criticizing others lack in effective posting rigour when your own appearance has directly followed with a horrible entry and first impression."Okay, creationism is just a belief that has no substantial proof outside the bible."
--The ToE haven't been 'proven' either, so there's no point there."No, creationism is not hard to understand as a beautiful story and a myth. Heck the bible is full of inconsistencies, how can we accept this as true?"
--While I highly doubt you in your confidence by this assertion, I'm not the one to ask questions in the realm of scriptural interpretation and such."Surely, you are not that ignorant to refute empirical evidence in place so some unproven "cherished belief". Or I could be wrong."
--If you were to refer to me, your wrong, if your talking to ringostore, you'd have to find his response.--Also, I am a YEC. I do, however, have no problem with the ToE. I simply disagree that it was the evolutionary process of evolutionary development which has taken place in Earth history.------------------

"--I wouldn't start criticizing others lack in effective posting rigour when your own appearance has directly followed with a horrible entry and first impression."
Hmmm, how to adress this one. I am not the one with the "flaws and fabrications" of evolution. For the sake of this discussion, there has to be no scientific finesse because it is not needed. I am still waiting for those "flaws". And no, sometimes I do have a lapse in logical presentation, esp. at 12:22 a.m. Note to self: No posting after 12:00 a.m. Ahhh, first impressions, not really interested in how I come across. Sorry if I offeneded anyone. Sarcasm is just a way of life.
"Okay, creationism is just a belief that has no substantial proof outside the bible."
--The ToE haven't been 'proven' either, so there's no point there.
Okay several things to say on this one. First off, there is much scientific evidence in supporting evolution, and everyday there is new evidence that is discovered that supports evolution all across the boards. I quote directly "in 1987 the United States Supreme Court ruled that creationism is RELIGION, not SCIENCE, and cannot be advocated in public school classrooms." taken from Not Found |The National Academies Press
All my life, I have looked at religion as a belief system. Creationism falls under this belief becuase you believed a "Higher Power" created all things either by creating them or creating them by evolution. Science acknowledges no higher power. It is outside the realm of science. The Supreme Court which spends much more time than I do in research and listening to educated advice made the same decision that I have made. Creationism is a RELIGIOUS BELIEF, not a SCIENTIFIC THOERY.
The theory of evolution was predicated by several theories some of which have been proven false. Yet, there were predictions made. This is significant in and of itself. To creationsim there weren no predictions made or problems set up. It is all on the premise that you believe a Creator created the world, do not care how he did, just that he did. This obviously has no scientific backup nor verification. Evolution has substantial evidence backing it up. True some of the evidence may conflict with other evidence, but I believe in good time other discoveries shall be made to make sense of it.
"No, creationism is not hard to understand as a beautiful story and a myth. Heck the bible is full of inconsistencies, how can we accept this as true?"
"--While I highly doubt you in your confidence by this assertion, I'm not the one to ask questions in the realm of scriptural interpretation and such."
Well, I have been reserching the accuracy of the bible, and am very disturbed in what I have have discovered in my research. Based off that research and personal experience, I have stated the above comment.
"Surely, you are not that ignorant to refute empirical evidence in place so some unproven "cherished belief". Or I could be wrong."
"--If you were to refer to me, your wrong, if your talking to ringostore, you'd have to find his response."
Actually this was projected to no one in particular. It is simply a venting of frustration in the attitudes to most if not all creationists. I would have asked for personal beliefs before projecting that statment to anyone. Had, I addressed it to anyone, then I would have predicated it with a name.
You are a YEC. Any good sources out there to support this "belief". I am looking to see if there are any other thoeries are acceptable. Perhaps, we can talk about YEC. I am doing preliminary reserach into the creationist side[for once] in an attempt to understand what you believe in. If you know of any sources, they would be appreciated.
Thanks and have a nice day.------------------
Anne C. McGuire
Student at Texas Tech University
Mathematics, Cell and Molecular Biology, and Piano Performance major