About Omniscience

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But now you're looking at it from the complete opposite viewpoint. God does not "think" for infinite periods of time, nor does he simply "exist" for an infintessimally small period of time. He does just "exist", but not for any amount of time and his "thought" is not bound by time.

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The question is, what is thought without the context of time? How can you have a thought, yet simply "exist"?

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Well, its pretty dang hard to remove time from our thinking and vocabulary. From our perspective creation happened in the past. God's perspective does not follow a timeline like ours. He doesn't say, "I remeber back in the good ole days when I created the heavens and the earth..." In God exists all reality at any time. The reality we experience now is a result of his action to continue this reality by keeping natural laws in place and functioning.

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Again, if I can't assume that God thinks in a somewhat analogous way to human thought because he is not bound by time, how can you state that that he "performs an action" or "keeps natural laws in place and functioning"? Is he temporal or atemporal?

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Again, "current" implies that something could happen in the future that he doesn't know about. If he transcends past and present this is not possible.

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I wasn't assuming he transcends past and present, that is what you are saying. I don't think it makes any sense to suppose a personal being which transcends time because you run into the situation we are at right now, i.e., not being able to use verbs or mention any temporal situations.

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You are also implying that there exists a reality outside of the reality he creates. But if he transcends time and never bumps into alternative realities created by some other supreme being, then I think it would be safe to say, he's omniscient.

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But if there is an alternate reality which he never bumps into, then I guess he wouldn't be omniscient in the sense that he knows everything. This seems very close to Loudmounth's "relative omniscience".

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If a more supreme being than he somehow has more power than he and is able to keep him from knowing any other reality than himself and the reality he creates, then I suppose he could not tell the difference between being omniscient and just knowing everything about himself and his realities.

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Then is it even possible for a being to know whether its omniscient or whether it just can't percieve some alternate reality or unthought of truths?

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But it seems kinda strange for supreme beings to not get to know each other...

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It seems kindof strange to even be talking about powerful magical beings in the first place, so I don't know how we can ascribe their actions as strange. A potential reality being strange is no reason to exclude it as a possible truth.

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So I think its pretty safe to assume there is only one supreme being and all reality exists through him.

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Just because the other idea is strange? Don't you think its strange that a magical being is somehow exuding all of reality and doesn't exist in a temporal dimension, yet can perform actions? I don't think strangeness is a good criteria for plausibility.

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If a more supreme being than he somehow has more power than he and is able to keep him from knowing any other reality than himself and the reality he creates, then I suppose he could not tell the difference between being omniscient and just knowing everything about himself and his realities.

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Which is exactly my point. You can't know if you are omniscient since you can't know "for sure" that there is another "plane of existence" or another "universe of experience" out there. However, omniscience can be supported when comparing two different sets of experience and senses. This is the case between humans and God (at least through the theology of Christianity as I understand it). In this case, God knows everything that humans have experienced, everthing they are experiencing right now, and everything they will experience. Also, God knows everything that is knowable to Man. That is, even though we may never visit a planet in a galaxy far, far away God still knows the properties of those planets that would be knowable to man. In this way, God is omniscient, but only in comparison to Man and it is accurate to claim that God is omniscient within the confines of God's relationship with Man.I am in no way trying to say that God is inferior, or that the Bible is incorrect. Quite the opposite. The God of the Bible is superior in every way, and the Bible is accurate with respect to Omniscience. However, using logic that we also share with God, it seems obvious to me that a claim of omniscience without a frame of reference can not be made at anytime by anyone.

Nice way to put it-"Omniscience needs a frame of reference". That satisfies me.

If a supreme being who transcends time and space and all reality (that he knows of), never (using a time word again) encounters another reality or another supreme being, then that alternative reality might as well be a figment of our imagination since there's no way to even know if it exists.I suppose you can believe in alternative supreme beings and realites, but this seems completely arbitrary. The Bible's depiction of God is that he is infinite. I cannot comprehend something infinite "missing" something. Can you have two beings with infinite knowledge that don't know each other or their realities? However, God is not defined by his relationship with man. I don't remember all the passages that describe God, but I get the feeling that God could not be bound by any "frame of reference". For example: He is the alpha and the omega; the beginning and the end; "in the beginning [which was not a begining] was the Word..."; and if he created the heavens and the earth, he can't very well be bound by the attributes of his own creation such as time space, finiteness... etc... Although I agree we have logic which God gave us, as he says, "Your thoughts are not my thoughts; my ways are above your ways."

I think that there could theoretically be something God does not know, for example, that he was created by a greater god, or that another dimension or something exists. However, this obviously cannot be proved, and even if something God doesn't know about exists, why would it matter?About time - God probably has his own time dimension in which to think and do other activities. Hugh Ross has speculated a 2 dimensional time or even a "sphere" of time in which God operates.

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If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

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If a supreme being who transcends time and space and all reality (that he knows of), never (using a time word again) encounters another reality or another supreme being, then that alternative reality might as well be a figment of our imagination since there's no way to even know if it exists.

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And therefore it is impossible to proclaim that you are omniscient without first defining the space in which you are omniscient. Because we can not tell if there are other dimensions, we have to assume that it may exist. However, within our own reality we can say what effects it and what defines it. Therefore, within God's reality he is omniscient, but God does not have absolute omniscience of everthing there is both within and outside of His reality.

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I cannot comprehend something infinite "missing" something.

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Imagine a 2d line that is infinite in 2 directions. However, this infinite line misses something pretty huge, the third dimension.

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Can you have two beings with infinite knowledge that don't know each other or their realities?

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Yes. As described above with the line, you can infinite knowledge of your plane of existence but lack any knowledge of other planes.

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However, God is not defined by his relationship with man.

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No, but the Bible is, and it is the Bible claiming that God is omniscient.

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I don't remember all the passages that describe God, but I get the feeling that God could not be bound by any "frame of reference".

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God is bound by God's frame of reference.

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He is the alpha and the omega; the beginning and the end; "in the beginning [which was not a begining] was the Word..."; and if he created the heavens and the earth, he can't very well be bound by the attributes of his own creation such as time space, finiteness... etc...

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So his frame of reference is different than ours, but his frame of reference is still His own. Without another frame of reference to compare to, omniscience is in doubt.

Do you or do you not believe God is the creator of this universe with all it's dimensions?If God creates the space and dimensions to begin with, then he can't be bound by the boundaries you are imposing on him: space and its various dimensions parallel or otherwise. What are His boundaries? If God creates his reality from nothing, and holds that reality in existence by his power and knowledge alone, how could he not know everything in this reality? What law of the universe says that all the other laws and dimensions must exist? If God didn't know about or forgot about the slightest thing in his reality, it would cease to exist.You imply that there could be another reality out there (using a space word) that God doesn't know about. If you believe this, you have to explain how that reality came into being apart from a supreme being and why God cannot know about it. This is an imperfect analogy because all dimensions exist because God, as the creator, created and sustains them. What other planes? How can another plane of existence exist without a cause? Well, I believe the Bible is true, but I'm not even quoting scripture here. I'm just trying to think about this logically. Unless there is a creator, there is no reason anything should exist. If there is no creator, why is there not just nothingness? If by his will all existence came to be then He cannot be bound by what he created.

God is ineffable. God simply IS. Omniscience and perfection, lacking nothing is God. Words fail. God is a manifested undiferentiated reality. Like waves are to the ocean, the universe is to God. Each wave different, but all rise and manifest from the source of they're existance. God is Being itself. God is the universe, and more than the universe. If there is something above God then that is GOD. Then again it depends on what you believe. It is a matter of belief not fact. IMHO.

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

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Do you or do you not believe God is the creator of this universe with all it's dimensions?

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For the sake of argument, I am assuming that He is. I am simply arguing about the quality of omnipotence that the Bible claims God possesses.

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If God creates the space and dimensions to begin with, then he can't be bound by the boundaries you are imposing on him: space and its various dimensions parallel or otherwise. What are His boundaries?

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This universe and this reality.

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What law of the universe says that all the other laws and dimensions must exist?

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No law that I am aware of REQUIRES that another reality exists, but no law that I am aware of REQUIRES that another reality DOES NOT exist. Therefore, it is possible. The mere possibility puts God's total omniscience over all realities in question. This is why I claim that God can be omniscient, but only within a frame of reference. That frame of reference being our reality.

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This is an imperfect analogy because all dimensions exist because God, as the creator, created and sustains them.

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But what about possible other dimensions that God did not create but exist nonetheless? God exists within the dimensions he created, and is omniscient within those boundaries. This doesn't prevent other dimensions from existing of which God has no knowledge and therefore these alternate realities do not require his existence.

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What other planes? How can another plane of existence exist without a cause?

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For the same reason this plane exists: Supernatural intervention by a diety.

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Unless there is a creator, there is no reason anything should exist.

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Not necessarily. But this is a discussion for another thread. Look up the "Casimir effect". Matter does in fact appear from nothing, it has been observed.

If this is off topic I apologize.Does God (as a being that's been described as Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omniexistant) know why he's always existed? Does this 'why' have a reason behind it? Would a reason be equivalent to a cause?If there is a being that knows everything and has always existed then he has to know why he exists, right?Random ponders... yet again
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Well, if someone were to question "why" they exist that would seem to imply that there was a point at which they didn't exist, you know? There aren't words in any language able to describe well enough the fact that God has always existed. God is an infinite God, and we have finite minds. So that means that we will never fully understand God.

Actually my question was does God know why he has always existed. Not why he exists in the first place but closer to the reason why he doesn't have a beginning. I often hear this used but don't really understand it. I know of the concept of infinity in mathematics but how does that apply to God? And just for kicks please let me know what having a "finite" mind means too thanx
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