rape culture/victim culture

One of the problems I have with the formula presented is the implication that the work in the house has been ‘ordered’ by the male. As an example, I once lived with a woman that vacuumed the living room every day. This was not a service she was providing me, but her fulfilling a personal need. That said, I’m for shared finances.

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guess I don't understand the intended point of your aside - it seems to simply take a jab at men.

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No, actually both genders do this.At least, that was the observation of the author of an article I read a while back. I spent some time searching for an online version of it, or something similar, but so far have failed to find it.Anyway, the idea of the piece was that there was a trend toward people spending more time at work not just because they needed the money. Indeed, many people who spend long hours at work get paid the same, as they paid a salary. The people were working more because they were avoiding the chaos and drudgery of being at home with kids and housework.

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My point was that solely looking at housework as a measure of work effort contributing to the family unit was obviously flawed.

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Oh, I agree with this.

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Also, I am still interested in seeing your comparative data of arrests, prosecutions, and sentences for domestic versus non-domestic assault that lead you to make the assertion: "Clearly, "domestic" assaults are given different, less serious attention and treatment by law enforcement." (Especially given the recent accusation that evos don't demand evidence and follow-up on each other's assertions...)

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I have been searching for statistics, but I can't seem to find any comparative ones, and finding statistics of violent crime prosecutions vs. domestic violent crime prosecution has been very difficult.However, I think that there is probably widespread variation in the US among communities regarding how seriously law enforcement and prosecutors' offices treat domestic violence. I found this paper which looked at several counties in Missouri which showed marked differences in how domestic assaults were investigated and prosecuted. paperSo, for now I have to withdraw my statement since I can't find the stats.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-25-2005 08:29 AM

brennakimi, perhaps you might consider putting aside your apparent hatred of women for a second and spend a moment of your time looking up that old thread on feminism.I seem to recall that you left a few things hanging there.Hey, I found it! Here you go: What is Feminism? Message #59

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One of the problems I have with the formula presented is the implication that the work in the house has been ‘ordered’ by the male. As an example, I once lived with a woman that vacuumed the living room every day. This was not a service she was providing me, but her fulfilling a personal need.

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The issue is not always that a specific individual man "orders" his wife to do most of the housework, although that certainlt happens, just as some wives "order" their husbands to work outside the home.It is more an issue of cultural expectations that we are immersed in since birth, possibly before. Girls are expected to be neater than boys, and are also expected to be the caretakers. Boys are expected to be messier, and to need to be taken care of.These attitudes don't evaporate when we reach adulthood.

Where did my formula imply that?My calculations showed that total time spent working for the family was roughly the same for men and women. Yes - I know the feeling; for every person who hates housework there seems to be another who enjoy or feel compelled to do it much more than necessary. Hours spent fulfilling these personal desires shouldn't count in "the tally" any more than those spent working all weekend at a job because people enjoy it...

It's not surprising that many people would follow that trend; especially salaried professionals. I feel like many such studies ignore the enormous number of hourly wage workers in the country who need to work overtime or two jobs to support their families.However, I know plenty of people who wish they could spend more time at home/with their kids but are limited by work hours. Perhaps I'll look around to see if anyone has surveyed that point. From my personal anecdotal experience, most people I know want to spend more time at home than at work. Okay. I guess in part I am keeping in mind some studies that were done a while back that showed that in cases of assault where women were victims, consistently prosecutions were more likely and sentences longer than if men were victims. This intuitively argues (in my mind) that the criminal courts go out of their way to protect women (or they don't value men as much). I realize that even if I could produce this study it wouldn't address the domestic vs non-domestic assault issue, however that is in part where my question was coming from...I'll check out the linked paper when I get a chance.

I'm not sure how to take your rant.It seems you hate both men and women, so I guess I can't call you sexist.Care to contribute anything worthwhile?

no i don't really. i just hate people making excuses for why they simply complain about things and don't do anything about it.i was responding to this

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...or maybe they are spending more time at work because it is easier than taking care of the kids and the house.

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and of course contracycle's age old rant about how women's careers are interrupted by children. in our day in age, having children is a choice. if a woman really wants a career, then she has to consider that in her family planning agenda. if she wants children, then she either has to sacrifice and squeeze them out or adopt and hire a nanny. in which case she doesn't really have children now does she? why can't the man have the child? why because god and mother nature are sexist of course!*shakes head*

btw. i don't hate women. i do, however, hold great rancor for stupid people who try to find some ridiculous excuse for why they failed calculus (the easiest course in the world) or to draw attention away from their own laziness and put it on their "choice" which they never exercise. i don't hate women any more than i hate men. human beings are inherently stupid (yes, i acknowledge my part in this group, with great shame.) and they all run around in their self-important lives doing stupid things that have no meaning. watch people long enough. just go out and sit at the mall or some other vile place and watch them. they look and act like monkeys after a while. they preen each other and shriek and hit and... it's disgusting. and it's quite telling. we make all these theories about this and that and so many people assume that we're the culmination of some great thing... not at all.haha. silly you, you drew it out.

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in our day in age, having children is a choice. if a woman really wants a career,

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or if a man really wants a career...

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then she has to consider that in her family planning agenda.

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Doesn't a man have to do the same?...if he doesn't have to consider it, why not?

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if she wants children, then she either has to sacrifice and squeeze them out or adopt and hire a nanny.

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Pregnancy only lasts 9 months, while the responsibility of raising a child lasts at least 18 years.Most women work up until very close to birth, so it isn't even 9 months of work absence.Fathers need to consider child care responsibilities too, right?

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in which case she doesn't really have children now does she?

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Says who, you?It's a myth that everyone used to have stay at home mothers.And even though men are parents, parenting and childcare issues are still thought of as "women's issues" by many people.

Well if you go back to when human society was all hunter/gatherers, at that point everyone had a stay at home/basecamp sort of mom! Of course you're right that in at least the last century or so, many women worked outside the home, but you should acknowledge that our current society probably marks an all-time high for the percentage that do so.

exactly my point. yes the father needs to get in on the planning, but my point is that it's no huge interruption in the woman's career unless she wants it to be. she doesn't have to stay home for more than a week (depending on her birth methods) so it's really not a big deal. if she chooses to stay home until the child is "old enough for day care" (they have infant care now ) that is a choice she makes to pause her career. no one should have to give her any undue accomodations. yeah don't fire her, but don't pay her, she's not working (at the place of business).it would be like. oh. i want a puppy. i think i should get a paid vacation from work until i can potty train it. and i think this because i'm a woman and i've been opressed for centuries.

Brennakimi,The decision to have children can hardly be considered to be equivalent to the idea "Oh i want a puppy". These decisions are usually made carefully by man and woman together. The whole of society has an interest in facilitating the reproduction of members of society who wish to reproduce, which is why (in many countries) we all help pay for childcare, medical care etc. through our tax systems.The idea that bringing up a child is like a "paid vacation" is laughable. It is hard work, and there is no reason at all that a woman's employer or community should not pay her for that work, given that our employers want to have a market in the future (i.e. they need children to shill their wares to) and our communities generally don't want to go extinct due to people not being able to afford to have children...mick

I would prefer society went in another direction, rather than taking away certain parental leave rights from women, give the same parental leave rights to both women and men.Perhaps if fathers were given the chance to nurture early in their child's life they wouldn't be so reticent or hapless regarding "taking care of the kids" in general. Such rights would also go a long way to opposing the idea that men need to work outside of the home to support stay-at-home wives. Many men would like to be stay-at-home dads while their wives provide the source of income - as you say, if they want to they should quite whining and do so - yet such a scenario remains unaccepted by society's standards.You want to reverse stereotypes about women? Don't take away their benefits, give the same benefits to men, and maybe in the process stereotypes about both men and women will be reversed.

How did the discussion go from rape (Violent assault on another human being) to economic matters?So the woman has equal access to the mans money. What has that got to do with rape? Rape is not about access to another persons body (and frankly I find it sickening that someone would reduce a human beings worth to economic worth). Rape is about power and is a violent assualt even when no violence is used.Another thing - I do not know the law in the US - but in Denmark both spoouses have equal access. by this discussion it would seem as if the female has full access to the males money but not the other way around? is that so? Likewise in the case of divorce. In Denmark the party making the most money can be forced to pay alimoney (spelling?) to the other party - it is not about women getting the mans money.So only in the cases where the man has more money going in to the marriage, or earn more money is it an issue that women have access to the mans money!In a divorce both the husband and the wifes assets are taken into account!That men make more money than women on average is an issues that shouldnt factor in to this./Soren