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Author | Topic: War in Iraq, is there a point? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6502 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
The heart of the Islamist movement, its ideology, and the source of its funds and major training centres, was Afghanistan - bin laden's base - and is still other points in the islamic world.
I explained why Iraq, and would rather not repeat myself.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The heart of the Islamist movement, its ideology, and the source of its funds and major training centres, was Afghanistan - bin laden's base - and is still other points in the islamic world. Interesting but that has nothing to do with the question I asked. What does Iraq have to do with 9-11? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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CanadianSteve Member (Idle past 6502 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: |
Please read my post carefully. I explain why defeating hussein ties into 9/11.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
If there was anything in my post that raised a doubt about my support of our troops or our action in Iraq let me quell it. Not being behind Bush's hope of establishing democracy doesn't mean I don't support the war in general. In fact I think we should probably have been more forceful in various ways.
Yes, the terrorists take any lack of support for our actions as weakness, but then they take even civilized restraint as weakness. That's one good reason to hit them hard if we want to discourage terrorism.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What name calling? Your post is about as low as it's gotten I'd say. There's a big difference between criticism and ideological hate and I made that distinction so spare me your self-righteous lecture.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: If there was anything in my post that raised a doubt about my support of our troops or our action in Iraq let me quell it. Not being behind Bush's hope of establishing democracy doesn't mean I don't support the war in general. In fact I think we should probably have been more forceful in various ways. I apologise. I don't know why I linked it to your post. I just meant it as a general statement and I should have posted it that way. It wasn't a reflection on anything that you posted.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: But why start a huge war in Iraq when Bin Laden, the person who actually hurt us, was our target?
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No, it's really not capable. All the generals say we need more troops on the ground, every other TV commercial is a US military recruitment ad, soldiers are doing three or more tours of duty, and we have soldiers who are trained as file clerks pressed into duty as military prison guards because there were not enough soldiers with the correct training. Iraq, after two years, is still not secure, and Afghanistan is showing signs of becoming insecure as well.
Early 2002 Most of Task Force 5's members are called home from Afghanistan to prepare for operations in Iraq. In early 2002, there were roughly 150 Task Force 5 commandos in Afghanistan. After the massive transfer, Task Force 5's numbers dip to as low as 30 men. Task Force 5 is a top-secret elite group that includes CIA paramilitary units and military special mission units, or SMUs. One of the SMUs is the former Delta Force. The name of the other unit, which specializes in human and technical intelligence operations, is not known. These elite forces, along with the battlefield intelligence technology of Predator and Global Hawk drone aircraft, were the scarcest tools of the hunt for jihadists along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, the Washington Post notes in June 2004. According to Flynt Leverett, a career CIA analyst assigned to the State Deparmtent, There is a direct consequence for us having taken these guys out prematurely. There were people on the staff level raising questions about what that meant for getting al-Qaeda, for creating an Afghan security and intelligence service [to help combat jihadists]. Those questions didn't get above staff level, because clearly there had been a strategic decision taken. [Washington Post, 6/22/04] quote: It looks to me like we have very much given up the fight for the perpetrator of the larges terror attack on US soil in history. We don't have our best people trying to find him, they are all in Iraq. And how do you know he's been neutralized? Just because we don't know where he is means that he can operate in a clandestine fashion, doesn't it? And what "bigger fish" is there other than the mastermind behind 9/11, which is Osama Bin Laden? Osms Bin Laden hurt us, not Sadam Hussein. Why do you find that so diffucult to remember?
quote: No, he isn't. However, he was behind 9/11. We liberals haven't forgotten that, unlike many conservatives. He was the one responsible, and there isn't much reason he couldn't do something like that again as long as he is at large. And you still haven't explained to me how Iraq was an immediate threat to the US before we invaded. You have also not explained how the radical Islamic presence is much greater in Iraq now compared to when Hussein was in power. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-23-2005 08:54 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
I did read the op-ed piece you posted, and I found the following interesting.
What ever happened with this lead? Do you even know?
It is possible that the Ahmed Hikmat Shakir listed on the Fedayeen rosters is a different man from the Iraqi of the same name with the proven al Qaeda connections. His identity awaits confirmation by al Qaeda operatives in U.S. custody or perhaps by other captured documents. Oh, and you neglected to respond to the other part of my message:
quote: Since Iraq was a secular dictatorship, Hussein supressed radical Islam while he was in power. It is only now that Hussein is gone that radical Islam has been able to gain a foothold in Iraq.
The war brought more radical Islam to Iraq than it had had in decades.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Japanese internment camps. The Trail of Tears. 200 years of slavery, lynchings, hatred and racism until the present. The KKK in the whitehouse. The School of the Americas Making nice with Saddam Hussein while he gassed his own people. Torture in military prisons. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-23-2005 09:11 AM
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Well, I am a communist after all. What did you expect?
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
up, these guys are LEFTISTS with a capital L, and most of them don't even know it. They've bought the straight Communist line though they think Communism is dead. The portrait of America they've bought was consciously propagandized BY the Communist Party in this country in the 30s and later by their children, the New Left of the 60s. Wish we could shake some sense into them. This kinda crap. It's the underlying assumptionn that the guy on the other side of the argument is some sort of Anti-American communist hippy who needs "to have sense shaken into them". or:
Your post is absolutely devoid of content. I have no idea what you are saying. I feel exactly the same way about our institutions as you describe. They've been bastardized by the Left. But I suppose you HAVE the Leftist view of them. The underlying assumption that people on the left are ruining this country. Or some other unsoported, ideological bull crap. This is not what this thread was supposed to be about. It was supposed to be about both sides laying out why the war was necessary, why it has a point? Don't you think that people on both sides of the issue has thought long and hard about what this war is about? I like some of the articles Tal and Monk have posted. I think they paint a good portrait of the conservative viewpoint. Do I agree, no. But I also don't think that the right are a bunch of brain dead idiots "out to basterdize our institutions" or some other idiocy.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Yes, but is the US the world's policeman now? Is it our job to invade every country with a cruel dictator? Why aren't we invading Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, North Korea, Syria, Indonesia, Iraq, Sudan, Burundi, and a dozen other countries with cruel dictatorships or militant Islamic governments to help the people of those nations? They chop people's heads off and stone adulterous women to death in Saudi Arabia, you know.
quote: Of course it will be our fault. We got rid of Hussein, who mainained a secular government in the region and suppressed the militant Islamicists. There was a power vacuum left in it's place and since we didn't think there would even be an insurgency and don't have enough troops on the ground we haven't secured the country. The military Islamicists have won the hearts and minds of the people, not us.
quote: Yeah, we see how that worked for the Iranians, the Indonesians, the people who live in Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of radical Islam. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-23-2005 09:21 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I don't think that is true. Much of the western world resents a childish bully, which is what the US has become.
quote: We have a lot of success and power now because of our very large size (aquired by imperialistic means, often violent), copious coastlines, and abundant natural resources and farmland. We used a lot of slave labor to produce agricultural products. Later, during the industrial age, we also took in large numbers of poor europeans to work for pennies in our factories and sweatshops (this was before the LIBERALS enacted things like child labor, minimum wage, and worker's rights laws) and which created a lot of centralised wealth. Now we have large multinational corporations which have continued the centralised wealth.
quote: But Iraq was not a war that was forced upon us. It was purely a war of choice. There was no imminent threat to the US from Iraq. I completely supported the war in Afghanistan (as did the rest of the world, including Europe) and was dismayed that we did not finish the job there.
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FairWitness Inactive Member |
There is evidence that funding & training for the 9/11 hijackers was provided by Iraq. Meetings took place between Iraqi intelligence officials & Mohammed Atta, the training camp known as Salman Pak, southwest of Baghdad trained hijackers in the EXACT METHODS used on 9/11, & at least 5 of the hijackers trained in that camp. That is not a coincidence, that is a direct link to 9/11.
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