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Author Topic:   Rational Christianity - A faith of reason?
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 65 (291378)
03-02-2006 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by JavaMan
03-02-2006 5:45 AM


Re: Aesthetic Choices
Do you really believe there are no objective criteria for judging
No, there's no objective criteria. What is the quality of the Arnold poem that is superior? What would we call it?
precision of language?
vividness of expression?
melodic phrasing?
idea has more depth?
Why should precision, vividness, melody, or depth--all vague qualities by the way--be superior to some other qualities? Maybe simplicity is better than subtlety; maybe this melodic phrasing is really insipid.
Aesthetics is in the same position (lack of grounds) as morals, except that aesthetics is worse in that there is far less agreement than in morals.
There is a great deal of ridiculousness in Shakespeare--and in Arnold, too, for that matter.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 03-02-2006 05:56 AM
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 03-02-2006 05:58 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by JavaMan, posted 03-02-2006 5:45 AM JavaMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by JavaMan, posted 03-02-2006 9:12 AM robinrohan has replied

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2349 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 62 of 65 (291417)
03-02-2006 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by robinrohan
03-02-2006 6:55 AM


Re: Aesthetic Choices
Aesthetics is in the same position (lack of grounds) as morals, except that aesthetics is worse in that there is far less agreement than in morals.
Just because not everybody agrees about everything doesn't mean you can't have objective criteria for making judgements.
The Arnold poem is aesthetically more pleasing because of its more successful use of metre and rhyme. It's a really simple, physical thing and you don't need to be a literary critic to feel it. Read those two poems out loud and 99 out of a 100 people will laugh at the second poem because its metre and rhyme are inappropriate. Even people with no literary education are brought up with nursery rhymes and songs, so we all have at least this much feeling for poetry.
If I'd chosen a poem by ee cummings to compare with Dover Beach, making aesthetic judgements would have been more difficult and possibly would have been beyond anyone who didn't have a literary education. But even then it's possible to make objective judgements. After all that is what literary criticism is about - it's not about saying whether you like or dislike a poem (which is always going to be a subjective thing, based on your own experience of life, your own tastes and preferences) but about the objective aesthetic effect of a poem.
There is a great deal of ridiculousness in Shakespeare--and in Arnold, too, for that matter.
What do you mean by ridiculousness? If you mean bad poetry, why does that reflect on our judgement of the good poetry?

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by robinrohan, posted 03-02-2006 6:55 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by robinrohan, posted 03-02-2006 9:24 AM JavaMan has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 65 (291420)
03-02-2006 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by JavaMan
03-02-2006 9:12 AM


Re: Aesthetic Choices
The Arnold poem is aesthetically more pleasing because of its more successful use of metre and rhyme
"Successful" in what sense? More regular? Follows some artificial rules? Maybe I don't like those rules. Perhaps it's TOO smooth and regular. Perhaps I hanker after harshness.
But even then it's possible to make objective judgements.
There are none, unless one accepts some made-up criteria beforehand.
What do you mean by ridiculousness?
My point was that one could build a case against Shakespeare's plays very easily. The plots are absurd; the poetry is flowery. Perhaps I like my literature lean. Shakespeare is not lean. Perhaps my criteria includes "realism." Shakespeare indulges in all sorts of improbabilities, not to mention the magical and supernatural. Therefore, I dismiss him. He doesn't make the grade according to my standards.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 03-02-2006 08:26 AM
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 03-02-2006 08:29 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by JavaMan, posted 03-02-2006 9:12 AM JavaMan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by robinrohan, posted 03-02-2006 9:34 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 65 (291423)
03-02-2006 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by robinrohan
03-02-2006 9:24 AM


Re: Aesthetic Choices
It's all convention, Javaman.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by robinrohan, posted 03-02-2006 9:24 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 65 (291430)
03-02-2006 9:46 AM


Aesthetic choices is OFF TOPIC

Stay on topic


If you wish to further discuss aesthetic choices, please open a new thread for that.


  
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