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Author | Topic: Where does literalism end and interpretation begin? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ramoss Member (Idle past 642 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Christians obey all the ten commandments and loving God is the highest of them all. Paul was God's instrument, as inspired by God as any of the OT prophets and no believer will ever pit Paul against God. All of Paul's teachings came from God.
That is debateable. Many non-christians (and some who claim they are christians) see the concept of the trinity as violating the first commandment.
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4141 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
Christians obey all the ten commandments and loving God is the highest of them all.
But the 10 commendments arn't about loving god they are about worshipping him and obaying him in all things
Paul was God's instrument, as inspired by God as any of the OT prophets and no believer will ever pit Paul against God. All of Paul's teachings came from God.
thats because you are a believer in paul's writings, its all a matter of degree, anyone can say they are god inspired.I'm talking history here, the fact that paul was the person that preached to gentiles who would not follow the jewish law, and we don't follow it shows it must have been changed. it had nothing to do with being fair to someones beliefs. they condemmed anyone who worshiped idols and things like thing. i suppose this was a bad idea to ask all this being OT, admin stop me if it is
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1314 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
ramoss writes:
But doesn't specifically state that Man-Man or Woman-Woman is wrong? the comment about man being given a wife made out of his side (the hebew could mean either side or rib), does indicate that a man and wife is the ideal. So does something become evil simply because it is not specifically mentioned as Ideal in the bible?I would have thought it would have been specifically pointed out as in levitican law (which we have learned in message 46 and message 49 was overuled by Paul(and Jesus?)) ramoss writes:
But other bible passages cleary state that a woman should be subservient. I personally prefer the translation of 'SIDE' instead of 'RIB', because it indicates an equality (side by side) in a marriage, rather than a woman being in a subserviant role. Another case where "interpretation" can change the meaning?
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LinearAq Member (Idle past 4706 days) Posts: 598 From: Pocomoke City, MD Joined: |
Faith writes: Christians obey all the ten commandments... As a practical matter, what must I do to ensure I am obeying #4? Isn't the Sabbath on Saturday? Does that mean I cannot work on Saturday?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Christians obey all the ten commandments and loving God is the highest of them all. ======== But the 10 commendments arn't about loving god they are about worshipping him and obaying him in all things If you love me you will obey me said Jesus. When Jesus boiled the commandments down to loving God and loving neighbor he meant the ten commandments, and the first three are about loving God. That is how this is taught in most Bible studies I've attended.
Paul was God's instrument, as inspired by God as any of the OT prophets and no believer will ever pit Paul against God. All of Paul's teachings came from God. ====== thats because you are a believer in paul's writings, its all a matter of degree, anyone can say they are god inspired. When that person's writings have been approved by the church over the millennia and canonized and taken as authoritative, this isn't just "anyone" we are talking about.
I'm talking history here, the fact that paul was the person that preached to gentiles who would not follow the jewish law, and we don't follow it shows it must have been changed. it had nothing to do with being fair to someones beliefs. they condemmed anyone who worshiped idols and things like thing. I can't really follow what you are saying. The only history we have of any of this comes from scripture. Paul is clearly the one who was sent to the Gentiles as the New Testament shows, the book of Acts in particular. The Gentiles didn't refuse to follow the Jewish law at all. Many of them were already proselytes in the synagogues. This had nothing whatever to do with expedience of any kind. The fact is that what Jesus did on the cross and in the resurrection and ascension fulfilled the Law and now we live to Christ and not the Law, as the scripture says. Sorry if I'm answering an OT topic. I suppose it will end here then. This message has been edited by Faith, 03-10-2006 02:40 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm not going to argue with you about what the Sabbath is, what day and so on, or how it should be observed. I'll leave that to your own understanding, your own conscience. The only point is that it should be observed. Some Christians disagree that this means observing an actual day of the week, understanding that Jesus Himself IS our Sabbath and now all specific times of observance are no longer relevant. This doesn't mean it isn't observed, but only that it is now observed by "walking in the Spirit" and living the rest that is in Christ, who is our Sabbath rest. This too I would leave to the individual conscience.
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4141 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
no its no problem, i might propose a topic on this, i love history and discussing it. but its my fault i shouldn't have started it
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LinearAq Member (Idle past 4706 days) Posts: 598 From: Pocomoke City, MD Joined: |
I'm not going to argue with you about what the Sabbath is, what day and so on, or how it should be observed. I'll leave that to your own understanding, your own conscience.
But you're the literalist, not me. A little clarity on how you follow this commandment is very much on topic from my point of view. You said "all Christians" follow the Ten Commandments. If you don't use a particular day as the Sabbath, then how you determined why you don't have to could give us some insight into the limits of your literalism.
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Murphy Inactive Member |
The 7th day depends on what the 1st day is. If Monday is #1 then Sunday is #7. If Sunday is #1 then Saturday is #7. None of that is really relevant. What is relevant is the day one accepts as the Sabbath and what that person does on the Sabbath.
This has been an interesting thread to read. Everything we say or read is interpreted through the 'filters' of our experiences and knowledge. I think that is why Christ said we must be like children. Children don't have those 'filters' and accept almost everything as written or stated. Adults tend to apply too many worldly concepts to their input. Think of what the word 'gay' means in today's society, and what it meant 50 years ago... or a thousand years ago. The Bible MUST be interpreted, even by literalists, so as to understand what was meant at the time it was written. If 'heart' at that time meant 'self' or 'feelings', then it doesn't matter what 'heart' means today.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm torn between observing a Sunday Sabbath and the view that Jesus is our Sabbath so that all specific observances are irrelevant. It's not a comfortable place to be. I'd like to get it settled in my mind once and for all. I can respect all the interpretations of Sabbath observance pretty much, even Saturday observance although I believe there is much less support for that than the other interpretations.
I don't split this issue in terms of "literal" and for the most part I think that word is wrongly used in this thread. Too literal perhaps. This message has been edited by Faith, 03-10-2006 12:16 PM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The 7th day depends on what the 1st day is. If Monday is #1 then Sunday is #7. If Sunday is #1 then Saturday is #7. The early church met for worship on the FIRST day of the week, the "Lord's Day" which was the day of Jesus' resurrection; and this has been the standard practice since then, which is a good hint that the Sabbath of the seventh day was considered to be no longer in force.
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LinearAq Member (Idle past 4706 days) Posts: 598 From: Pocomoke City, MD Joined: |
Murphy writes: I have no idea what your claims to literalism are. However, unless you can provide some Bible quotes showing how the Sabbath became a movable day, I think you are blowing smoke. From what I know, the day is Saturday and has been that since its inception under Moses.
The 7th day depends on what the 1st day is. If Monday is #1 then Sunday is #7. If Sunday is #1 then Saturday is #7. None of that is really relevant. What is relevant is the day one accepts as the Sabbath and what that person does on the Sabbath. I think that is why Christ said we must be like children. Children don't have those 'filters' and accept almost everything as written or stated. Adults tend to apply too many worldly concepts to their input. Is this some insight as to your beliefs? Don't you think that this method would lead to some problems with poetic and parable passages being taken as true events? Additionally, this concept seems contradictory to your next paragraph where you state that the meaning of the words when they were written is important. How would a child know this?
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LinearAq Member (Idle past 4706 days) Posts: 598 From: Pocomoke City, MD Joined: |
Faith writes:
Uncertainty tends to be quite uncomfortable. I'm torn between observing a Sunday Sabbath and the view that Jesus is our Sabbath so that all specific observances are irrelevant. It's not a comfortable place to be. It seems that you are trying to decide between interpretations done by groups or persons other than yourself. What position is most supported by the Bible? Can you make a Biblical case for any or all of the methods used to "observe" the 4th Commandment?
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LinearAq Member (Idle past 4706 days) Posts: 598 From: Pocomoke City, MD Joined: |
The early church met for worship on the FIRST day of the week, the "Lord's Day" which was the day of Jesus' resurrection
This makes a certain sense especially if they wanted to distance themselves from the Jewish community. However, I don't see any reference in the Bible about shifting to Sunday. Is the day of worship required to be on the day of the Sabbath?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I haven't done a thorough Biblical study of the Sabbath myself so only have what I've heard preached and seen argued here and there. Biblically the "Lord's Day" of the first day of the week seems foundational to me, and the church did meet on that day and still does. But whether the arguments for this day as the Sabbath itself are valid or not I'm still undecided about. Clearly scripture says "He is our rest" and that strongly argues for a nonspecific day of observance it seems to me. But because greater minds than mine have regarded the Lord's Day as equivalent to the Sabbath for many centuries I hesitate to trust these conclusions I've come to on my own.
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