Prayer study results in negative outcome

riVeRraT and Faith, between the two of you, you've managed to concoct a belief system that is unassailable. If anything good happens to you, there must have been someone somewhere praying for you, so prayer does work. However, you gotta do it right, and god doesn't answer all prayes, so just because your prayer wasn't answered doesn't mean it doesn't work.All I can say is, it's a good thing you do have faith, because reason ain't gonna help you.This message has been edited by subbie, 03-31-2006 08:41 AM

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

You read it here, folks!

Heheheh... so God isn't willing to put in a little extra effort? Like he'd go to help as much as the person would need if they weren't expecting help, and didn't trust in him, but nothing more in case their trust in him was enough to weaken internal defenses?I guess the message then is not to trust Gods for help at all.

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holmes
"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." (Lovecraft)

Oddly, those who are most likely to believe that bit of tripe are also those most likely to give god credit for everything they accomplished by their own hard work.And while we're on the subject, why do some folks give god credit for everything good that happens but don't blame him for the bad stuff? god must have one hell of a press agent. Talk about teflon.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

The roots of religion go deep into human prehistory, culture, and psyche. The rise of civilization appears to have been synonomous with and dependent on the rise of organized religions to create a social psychological structure to allow very large groups of people to live in a society and coordinate their activities.Fritz Perls was the first writer to call my attention to the role of retroflection in religion. He credited the Jewish priests with creating the sense of guilt and psyche structure that allowed people to turn their anger with misfortunes away from God and his priests and back on blaming themselves. It wasn't that God isn't benign and all powerful it's that the misbehaviour of the Jews resulted in their being punished. History and current events demonstrate how effective this strategy is.So I would say yes, the priests that came up with this have devised a very powerful system of social control. On the other hand non dual systems such as Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta lead to the quesioning of the notion of the individual as anything more than a grammatical referent for a part of the system. Who is it that is resonsible for what? I put forth the Buddhist concept of interdependent causation. Anything that arises depends on a very great number of factors, there are no independent entities accomplishing anything in and of themselves. It is the playing out of causation that results in the changes we might call destiny.People pray because that is what we have learned to do. It's an expression of our psyches, our hopes and fears, and an acknowledgement that we are interdependent. I imagine formal prayer has functions but it is naive to imagine that it has any direct functional impact.I don't have an explanation for the outcome of the experiment beyond my knowledge that many experiments of this nature have to date not been replicated. I wouldn't expect prayer to have any direct impact one way or another. I would look to the support it gives to those who pray to deal with the stresses etc. of carrying on in some difficult situation.lfen

I said nothing of the sort. In fact I said the very opposite in my first post on this thread. {ABE: Sorry, that was another thread, Schraf's about how they didn't pray and had a great day} I said good things often happen without prayer.On this thread I couldn't have said that either though, because I don't think good things only happen with prayer. I think I was trying to explain here why God doesn't always answer prayer IIRC.This message has been edited by Faith, 03-31-2006 08:45 PMThis message has been edited by Faith, 03-31-2006 08:48 PM

While I get the joke perfectly, and I do think it is funny, because I love humor, the sad truth is that taking things out of context around here is the normal, not the joking.Good one!

But you didn't explain anything at all.The only thing you said that even approaches an explanation is your statement that there are "rules" about praying. (And I gotta say, that's a new one on me. Maybe that's been my problem all along, I wasn't holding my mouth right.)Other than that, there was some vague hand waving about it all being up to his will and your bald-faced observation that there is a purpose to suffering. That's your problem, Faith. You don't seem to understand that an explanation helps us understand why something did or did not happen. Simply saying, "It's god's will," doesn't help anyone understand anything. It may help you deal with and accept bad things that happen in life, but that's not even close to being an explanation, unless you follow it up with why it was god's will.This message has been edited by subbie, 04-01-2006 10:45 AM

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

Didn't He get cajoled into accepting a lower number?Though that wasn't via prayer...This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 04-01-2006 11:52 AM

How else are we supposed to talk with God now? In prayer thats how. T?hat is one of the reasons Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, so we have a direct line with God. You probably talk with Him all the time, but the world has you convinced it's just in your mind.

Prayer is not subject to blackout dates, availability or limited quantity per household. The bible has no specific rules or guidelines when it comes to which prayers will be answered instantly, answered in 'due' time, ignored or tossed out. Nor does it effectively establish the difference between true prayer(those to be answered) and false prayer --- DOES IT?The bible typically does not repeat itself - for some reason it does not allow the reader that luxury. The god of the bible leaves a lot of guess work for its readers(this may be why there are so darn many denominations - everyone knows their own version of the truth is true). Because of this it is often difficult to ascertain which points are important and which ones are not. In cases where a point is made more than 2 times the reader should be able to assume this of great importance - their god felt the point important enough to mention this multiple times.
* A point repeated is typically of more importance than a point which is not repeated.The bible promises us on multiple occasions that which we pray for will be granted. It does not give specific rules or guidelines - it is very clear on this issue:"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours""Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened""For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. "I am concerned. . . Why are all prayers not answered? Please using the authority of the bible demonstrate how to properly pray, how it works and how I can effectively utilize it to obtain what I want. Please refrain from linguistical contortions, opinions or putting words into your gods mouth. I am interested only in the truth of this matter - only in the authority of the bible or god. The bible is very clear in respect to prayer - pray and get what you want - period(this is what it says to me). Jesus has even mentioned this in the NT as well(Greater works you shall do). More importantly as mentioned above the bible typically does not use repetition to teach us. In respect to prayer this is the opposite - it was repeated over and over again. If I am misunderstanding, taking out of context or wrong please explain why/where.This message has been edited by Hunter812, 04-05-2006 10:06 AM