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Author Topic:   A scientific theory for creation
Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 68 of 76 (30556)
01-29-2003 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by LRP
01-29-2003 3:05 AM


LRP writes:
Polar wandering can be explained by my theory as to how the Earth was formed so the information you supply fits in with my theory perfectly.
The simple truth is that the continents were once all joined up in a supercontinent and has broken up since and individual continents have been free to rotate and slide about - which is what you are indicating and which I agree with completely.
You're leaving contradictions all over the place. First you say, "I am none the wiser about the way you time the drifting apart of continents" (Message 61), but after I explain it you say it is something you already "agree with completely." My suspicion that you're playing games hasn't dampened.
You say continents arose by fractionating from a molten Earth I say they did not. We are both dealing with different theories and you are quite at liberty to cling on to yours.
Actually, I haven't said anything about how the continents formed. We were talking about continental drift. If you recall, way back in Message 37 you said this about continental drift:
The real answer is a circular arguement-I wanted you you show me the way out of that arguement. Until I can get a satisfactory answer from anyone I will stick to what the Bible tells me in very plain words - the continents moved apart with human life on board. Give me evidence (not theory) to show this is a lie and I will weigh up that evidence with the same scale I use for any other evidence.
So here is this information once again:
The layers are dated radiometrically, while the direction of magnetization of the layer tells where latitudinally on the planet the layer was when it cooled, as well as it's orientation. This tells us that the continents have been drifting for billions of years, long before man ever populated the planet.
It also indicates that your theory is contradicted by the evidence.
There is no need to get personal in this discussion.
Personal? Are you talking about when I told you that your geologist friend was humoring you and that your questions were grade school stuff? That's simply a fact. Your geologist friend *must* already know this stuff because its in all the introductory textbooks for geology. You don't have to take my word for it, check any intro to geology textbook you like. The grade school reference wasn't meant to be literal, but you're asking questions about simple things that can be easily looked up, and that certainly someone with his own theory would already know. And then it turns out, wonder of wonders, you *did* already know it, just as I've been saying.
Perhaps the problem is that you're drawing your explanation out across too many posts. Could you just briefly explain your position regarding continental drift and how it explains the radiometric and paleomagnetic data?
--Percy
[This message has been edited by Percipient, 01-29-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by LRP, posted 01-29-2003 3:05 AM LRP has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by LRP, posted 01-31-2003 3:44 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 70 of 76 (30883)
01-31-2003 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by LRP
01-31-2003 3:44 PM


LRP writes:
I spent much time in thinking about your last post. I even popped in to the University to talk to someone I work with who has a Masters degree in Geology. But he like me could not see how palaeomagnetism and radiometric dating help in finding the answer to my original question which is how do we know WHEN the continents drifted apart.
I can't explain your geologist colleague's inability to help you with this. He'll have to explain that himself. I'm merely repeating to you modern geological theory, something you can learn in any introductory geology book. Here's a rather long excerpt from a layman's geology book, Building Planet Earth by Peter Cattermole, published in 2000, pages 120-121:
Wandering poles and continental drift
One of the reasons why geologists initially were so sceptical about Wegener's ideas was that there was no obvious reason why the continents should shift around, nor was there any plausible mechanism to achieve movement. An answer to the problem was first suggested by the great British geologist, Sir Arthur Holmes, who proposed that because the solid mantle was at very high temperature and under substantial pressure, it could actually flow over long periods. Slow motions of this kind would be more than ample to drag along rafts of the less dense lithosphere; although slow, the 'currents' would be extremely powerful. The situation is actually more complex than this, but Holmes certainly was on the right track.
Modern work has established that the lithosphere of the Earth is divided into a number of semi-rigid plates, seven of which are large, and a further five of which are of reasonable size. The boundaries between them are marked by zones of active seismicity and volcanicity. To be precise the term, 'continental drift' really refers to drift of the plates, rather than the continents alone; however, the result is much the same. Drift occurs because the plates are moving relative to one another, and the continents are carried along as part of lithospheric adjustments driven by mantle motions. Once this basic principle became accepted, it was relatively quickly that supporting evidence came along to dot the is and cross the ts, so to speak.
The most simple line of evidence comes from the almost perfect fit which can be achieved for some continents which once were joined; consider, for example, the structure of the Saharan Shield, which is around 2000 million years old. The structural grain of the rocks runs north-south towards the interior but then swings west-east towards the Atlantic margin. There is a well-defined boundary between these ancient rocks and younger ones which run into the ocean off the coast of Ghana. If drift is a fact, and Africa and South America once connected, there should be similar rocks with similar trends on the complementary side of the latter continent. Indeed, this is so; the boundary and a similar structural grain are found in the Brazilian Shield.
Further support for the theory comes from fossil remains. Fossils retrieved from ancient strata in Africa and Greenland, for instance, show that during the Silurian, Greenland was in tropical latitudes, while Africa was in the grip of glaciation! Then again, comparison of index fossils from the Phanerozoic rocks of both Gondwanaland and Laurasia shows that while the two were at one stage widely separated by the Tethys Ocean, at other times they were very close together, if not actually joined. The latter certainly was true between 350 and 220 million years ago.
The most convincing evidence, however, comes from palaeomagnetism, and it was this that finally clinched matters once and for all (although not immediately winning over all geologists). As I have previously mentioned, we can define the positions of the continents with respect to latitude by locating their past positions as shown by their palaeomagnetic imprint. During the late 1950s some curious facts had begun to emerge: as more and more palaeomagnetic measurements were made from different continents, it was found that, for any individual continent, if the magnetic pole positions were traced for different periods in time, data would not cluster around a single point but would trace out a path across which the pole appears to have passed. This could only be interpreted in one of two ways: either the magnetic pole had moved, or the continents had; initially it seems easier to accept that the magnetic pole position had changed. These paths were called polar wondering curves.
Once similar paths had been measured from different continents, it immediately became clear that this interpretation could not be the correct one. For instance, when polar paths for North America and Europe were plotted and compared on a map, while the pole position converges at the present time, 500million years ago, in the Early Palaeozoic, the poles were far apart. The same was found to be true for other continents too. There could be only one interpretation: the continents had moved. When the ancient pole positions for the different continents were 'put together', they were found to match those positions suggested by Wegener.
Now, you were aware that geologists think they know where each continent was over time, but because you didn't know how they knew you thought - what? That they were making it up?
Anyway, you now have the information you need to assess for yourself whether the evidence is convincing. Let me know if you have any questions about more detailed parts of the process. Something you said hints at the possibility that you believe the motion of the continents is derived from radiometric and paleomagnetic data from a single ancient volcanic eruption on each continent, but that's not the case at all. Geologists had to gather this data from basaltic material from many geologic ages. Something else you said hints that you believe basaltic rocks, once cooled, can change their magnetism to reflect the prevailing magnetic field, but this also isn't true. The magnetic orientation prevailing when the rock cools is frozen there for as long as the rock remains cool.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by LRP, posted 01-31-2003 3:44 PM LRP has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by LRP, posted 02-01-2003 4:54 PM Percy has replied
 Message 72 by LRP, posted 02-01-2003 4:58 PM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 75 of 76 (30997)
02-01-2003 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by LRP
02-01-2003 4:54 PM


LRP writes:
If I had a million dollars to determine as accurately as I could WHEN South America broke away from western Africa could you please tell me what tests I could carry out to determine for myself when this started to happen and when South America got to its present location.
This is a simpler question than the one we were actually discussing. You simply want to know when the split happened, not where each continent was over time. All you have to do in this case is radiometrically date the basaltic material of the sea floor adjacent to the east coast of South America, and of the sea floor on the west coast of Africa. Paleomagnetism isn't necessary for this measurement.
A cross-check that you could make would be to check sedimentation depth at the same places to see if it roughly corresponds to the passage of 100 million years. To the extent possible, since not all material is dateable radiometrically, you could also date the material at different sedimentation depths to see if it reflects gradually increasing age with depth that matches the age estimates based upon sedimentation depth.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by LRP, posted 02-01-2003 4:54 PM LRP has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Brad McFall, posted 02-03-2003 11:57 AM Percy has not replied

  
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