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Author Topic:   Morality and Subjectivity
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 238 (304916)
04-18-2006 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by JavaMan
04-18-2006 6:58 AM


Re: Subjective and Objective
Are there any logical grounds for moral rules?
There are no deductive grounds
That's exactly what I've been saying.
but there are pragmatic and empirical grounds. Most of the judgements you make in your daily life are based on pragmatic or empirical grounds rather than logical grounds. Does that make them any less valid?
I don't know about "empirical," but I agree with the "pragmatic" grounds. A pragmatic ground won't do philosophically. A pragmatic ground can be most anything you like. Vicious regimes have their own pragmatic grounds for their own set of morals. If you don't like the word "subjective," use some other term. But no action can ever be proven to be right or wrong.
"Subjective" does not mean false. It means it could be true only accidentally, not logically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by JavaMan, posted 04-18-2006 6:58 AM JavaMan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 238 (304921)
04-18-2006 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by JavaMan
04-18-2006 8:39 AM


Re: Rational Perception
trying to argue with you is immensely frustrating. If I've taken the trouble to put together what I feel is a compelling argument, the least you can do is think about my argument and put together a convincing refutation of it. If all you do is pick out a phrase here and there, then repeat your own argument, how are we advancing the discussion? We just go around in circles arguing the same points over and over again.
Yes, and also I'm "close-minded" (Paulk) and live in a "philosophical fantasy world" (Jar). My shortcomings, it appears, are numerous.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 04-19-2006 07:05 AM

"The whole of life goes like this. We seek repose by battling against difficulties, and once they are overcome, repose becomes unbearable because of the boredom it engenders."--Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by JavaMan, posted 04-18-2006 8:39 AM JavaMan has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 238 (318311)
06-06-2006 12:19 PM


"What brute or blackguard made the world": A study of the moral argument against God
In the ongoing quest to figure out if God exists or not, one (or at least I) have for many years thought that what might be called the "moral argument" against God was definitive. Unfortunately, I think it might be flawed.
Here's my "reasoning":
I thought earlier that the belief in evolution entailed a disbelief in
God. The Christian explanation for the presence of evil in the world is the concept of the Fall. According to this view, mankind fell when he sinned and nature fell with him. What had been nice became vicious and arbitrary. Suffering rained down on all.
Now the evolution and the Fall do not fit together. If one says that evolution occurred before the Fall, what are we to do with
those eons of suffering on the part of animals? One might claim that (a)animals don’t (or perhaps didn't) feel pain or (b)that even if animals do feel pain, animal pain doesn’t matter. In order to feel physical pain one must have a developed nervous system. Let’s keep in mind that man came very late in the evolutionary process. We are distant cousins to the cat. Cats and ourselves are both Eutherians. We split up around a 100 million years ago. So there is this extremely old ancestor of the modern cat that had many millions of years to develop a nervous system equal to the modern cat. There can be little doubt, I suppose, that many animals had nervous systems capable of causing them to feel pain long before the emergence of man--that is, long before the purported Fall.
What are we to do with all this pre-Fall animal pain? To say that animal pain doesn’t matter doesn’t seem right. Pain is pain, no matter who or what feels it--an animal, an alien from
outer space, or a human being. The animals are innocent presumably. It’s not their fault that they evolved to feed on one another and fight with each other. Who is responsible for this animal
pain? The obvious answer is God. God is cruel.
But to say that God is cruel is another way of saying that God does not exist. At any rate, that’s what people generally mean when they say that. This is the moral argument against the existence of God.
But there’s a flaw here, I think. If God does not exist, then our morality is subjective, by which I mean it’s just something we made up. There’s no logical basis for it. However we try to justify
some moral rule, the justification itself is a veil for yet another moral rule for which there is no valid justification. If I say, “Thou shalt not murder,” and somebody says, “Why not?”--what is
my response? Because you would not want someone to murder you? The Golden Rule? The response can be, “Well, I feel perfectly safe; I don’t think anyone is going to murder me. So why not do it if I can profit from it?” What are we to say? Can we say, if everybody felt that way, civilization would collapse? The response can be that obviously everyone does not feel that way, and anyway, why should we care if civilization collapses or not? Why shouldn’t we concentrate only on what is of immediate value to the Self--not the long term self but the short-term self?
Ultimately, the only reply can be, “Because it’s not right.” We might as well have just stuck with the moral rule, “Thou shalt not murder.” We haven’t advanced the argument at all.
But if our morality is subjective, then our moral judgments are subjective also. One moral judgment we might make is that God is cruel, based on the fact that animals suffered before this
purported Fall. But this is just a subjective judgment on our part since our morality overall is subjective. The moral argument against God fails due to the fact that we have no objective evidence of His cruelty. We only have our subjective feelings, which don’t count as evidence. I might as well claim that because I prefer red to blue, that red is objectively superior to blue or that because I went to a certain school, and have a liking for that school, that this proves that school is superior to other schools. Our morality might very well be a bias.
We can only judge God’s morality if he exists, not if he doesn’t exist. If God exists, he’s cruel (assuming the truth of evolution). But we can’t prove he doesn’t exist by claiming he’s cruel. Nonetheless, that is the main argument offered against the existence of God--that if He did exist, he would be cruel.
Any responses to this admittedly lengthy explanation would be appreciated.

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by iano, posted 06-06-2006 12:39 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 155 by PaulK, posted 06-06-2006 12:44 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 171 by lfen, posted 06-06-2006 11:02 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 238 (318322)
06-06-2006 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by iano
06-06-2006 12:39 PM


Re: "What brute or blackguard made the world": A study of the moral argument against God
I would have thought that finding one less reason to support Gods non-existance would prove a delight to you. Its almost like you didn't want him to exist.
It's not that I don't want Him to exist. I was looking for certainty, one way or the other.
They can exist and we can still have subjective morals.
If our morals are subjective, then the concept of sin is meaningless.
[personal note to Faith: all e-mails to you are returned "user unknown"].
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

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 Message 153 by iano, posted 06-06-2006 12:39 PM iano has replied

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 Message 158 by nwr, posted 06-06-2006 3:39 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 238 (318566)
06-07-2006 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by PaulK
06-06-2006 12:44 PM


Re: "What brute or blackguard made the world": A study of the moral argument against God
Firstly, I don't know why you keep phrasing your argument as one of evolution's compatibility with Christiaity when evolution per se has no real relevance to the argumetn. Even appealing to YEC views (because OEC views have the smae poblems) only solves part of the problem - and creates many more.
Well, I was thinking that the idea of the Fall would be a way of explaining human suffering. If by "more problems," you mean the issue of God's foreknowledge, I think maybe free will can be reconciled with it. I agree, however, that there are other issues (for example, why the descendents of Adam would be punished also).
It is not an argument agaisnt a more generic "God" wo migh be cruel.
As far as I know, nobody believes in such a god.
Logically it is not a problem if the argument only works if God exists. We may trivially save the argument by adding "God exists" as a premise. (e.g. "If God exists, then He is cruel" does not require us to assume that we can make moral objective judgements in the case that God does not exist). Thus this point is not a significant flaw in the argument.
This seems a little unclear to me. The "moral argument" against God is an argument about whether or not the (Judeo-Islamic-Christian) God exists. He doesn't exist because if He did,he would be cruel, and this God is not cruel. But our ideas about what's cruel are subjective, so they can't serve as evidence.
Perhaps I didn't understand your point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by PaulK, posted 06-06-2006 12:44 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by PaulK, posted 06-07-2006 2:20 AM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 238 (318568)
06-07-2006 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by lfen
06-06-2006 11:02 PM


Re: "What brute or blackguard made the world": A study of the moral argument against
I've been trying to suggest since I first encountered your arguments about nilhilism that there are a range of other possibilities to consider. These two possibilities seem to stem largely from the tension in Western culture between Judeo Christian reliance on revealed religion and the Greek development of rationality that later has flowered into science including ToE and the political struggle occuring in the US schools and legal systems over secular vs. religous society.
If you limit yourself to the two choices as you appear to be doing then those are the only choices you have. Neither choice makes a lot of sense to me.
These other possibilities would have to somehow reconcile human suffering with the notion of God, or have some way of providing purpose (objective purpose) without reference to God. I would need to be able to consider the possibility in a clear and distinct way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by lfen, posted 06-06-2006 11:02 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by lfen, posted 06-07-2006 2:17 AM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 238 (318570)
06-07-2006 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by jmrozi1
06-06-2006 4:00 PM


Re: "What brute or blackguard made the world": A study of the moral argument against God
Hopefully, you don't take these definitions too literally, but I want you to realize to points I'm trying to make:
(1) Almost all thought is a middle ground between these two extremes; maybe morality is subjective but it certainly isn't purely subjective.
(2) Even purely subjective thoughts have credence - they are based on logic. Even without observational support, logic is a phenomenon tempered by the patterns of our observed reality, which allows a person to function in society. By mere virtue of being able to function, logic isn't random, and therefore subjective thoughts can't be completely worthless. This is a pretty rough explanation, but hopefully you have some idea of what I'm talking about.
I think I do have an idea of what you mean, but I'm having trouble conceptualizing a moral system that is "partially" subjective and "partially" objective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by jmrozi1, posted 06-06-2006 4:00 PM jmrozi1 has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 238 (318572)
06-07-2006 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by nwr
06-06-2006 3:39 PM


Re: Certainty
In mathematics you can have certainty. In real life, you cannot.
Perhaps one has a moral intuitional faculty as one has a rational intuitional faculty. And so there can be "axiomatic moral assumptions" as in mathematics. Some people would be better at morals than others, just as some are better at math than others.

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 238 (318636)
06-07-2006 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by lfen
06-07-2006 2:17 AM


Re: "What brute or blackguard made the world": A study of the moral argument against
What if God has no purpose? What if God simply is?
Such a god would seem to be unimportant to us. In order for God to matter, He would have to be a creator who made us with some purpose in mind. Otherwise, we might as well call that God being/thing "nature."
The nihilistic view would still be accurate in such a case.
There has to be an explanation of how suffering entered the world.
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by lfen, posted 06-07-2006 2:17 AM lfen has replied

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 238 (318643)
06-07-2006 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by PaulK
06-07-2006 2:20 AM


Re: "What brute or blackguard made the world": A study of the moral argument against God
I would aslo add that even if nobody beleived in a cruel God, it would not make it impossible that such a God existed
Well, yes, but I tend to think there's something oxymoronic about the term "cruel god." But I'm not sure.
According to you our ideas of morality are subjective only IF God does not exist.
I think my point would be that our ideas of morality MIGHT be objective if there is a God, but cannot possibly be objective if there is no God. The moral argument against God is meant to PROVE that God does not exist.
I'll think about your remarks some more.
(I would further add that we do not need objectivity, only intersubjectivity. If we are agreed on what we mean by cruel and we agree that God cannot be cruel (as we mean it) it does not matter that the judgement of cruelty is not objective.
I don't see why it wouldn't matter that the judgement is subjective. We might agree about the judgement, and we might both be wrong.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 189 of 238 (318645)
06-07-2006 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by jmrozi1
06-07-2006 2:59 AM


Re: "What brute or blackguard made the world": A study of the moral argument against God
I would deem this type of reasoning subjective because it relies solely on logic.
Mathematics is based "solely on logic." Is it subjective? I don't think we have to go around measuring all those triangles to know that the Pythagorean theorum is true.
(Sorry for the brief response, but I'm in a hurry right now).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by jmrozi1, posted 06-07-2006 2:59 AM jmrozi1 has replied

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 238 (318722)
06-07-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by PaulK
06-07-2006 8:57 AM


Re: "What brute or blackguard made the world": A study of the moral argument against God
The point is that it negates your problem of a subjective morality by using agreed definitions. If God would not do something (which we happen to refer to with the label "cruel"), and if it is shown that if God exists then He must have done that thing then it logically follows that God does not exist.
Perhaps there is a problem with the meaning of the terms "subjective" and "objective."
I think what I meant by "subjective morality" is that the moral rules are some ideas that humanity thought up or felt, which if they turned out to be objectively true (in the sense, say, that a mathematical theorum is objectively true--true at all times, in all places, for all agents)then this could only be so by a fluke, for there is no logical basis for these rules, whereas there is a logical basis for some mathematical theorum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by PaulK, posted 06-07-2006 8:57 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by PaulK, posted 06-07-2006 12:19 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 238 (318737)
06-07-2006 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by lfen
06-07-2006 11:51 AM


Re: "What brute or blackguard made the world": A study of the moral argument against
Expanations there are quite a few. Let's say you reached into a hat a drew forth a sheet of paper on which was written the best explanation. You read it. Has your life changed? In what ways?
It would depend on the explanation. But if I had certainty (beyond a reasonable doubt) that there was a God in the traditional sense, my life might change drastically.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 238 (318818)
06-07-2006 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by PaulK
06-07-2006 12:19 PM


Re: "What brute or blackguard made the world": A study of the moral argument against God
No, there is no problem with the meaning of "subjective" and "objective". My point is that even if morality is subjective, so long as it is intersubjective we can meaningfully discuss it - and that permits arguments of this sort to work successfully.
In short it would be worse for your argument if morality were objective for then it would be possible to be wrong about it.
I'm not sure what you mean by "meaningfully discuss it"--if it's not possible to be wrong or right. I guess it's meaningful in a pragmatic sense. Suppose some people got together and intersubjectively agreed that they were superior and ought to rule the world. This doesn't mean, I don't think, that they ought to rule the world necessarily.
So if some people get together and decide that evolution is immoral due to animal pain, does this mean that evolution is in fact immoral?
Surely not. So I don't quite get what you are saying.
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 238 (318830)
06-07-2006 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by iano
06-07-2006 1:00 PM


Re: Definitely maybe.
Think of the sheer fun if nothing else (for the only way one can know him results thankfully in the 'negative' aspects of him never being made manifest. The day you get to know there is in fact a Hell (beyond all reasonable doubt) is the day you get to find out you are not going there)
I'm not sure I'd call such a realization "fun."

This message is a reply to:
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