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Author Topic:   The Suicide of Thought...
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 1 of 8 (324178)
06-21-2006 2:45 AM


Thoughtful feedback welcome...
If we say what is - is; or, what is not - is not; then it is true!
If we say what is - is not; or, what is not - is; then it is false!
So when saying what is, or, is not; we can only say that it is either true or false!
Condensed rendering of Aristotle's PRIOR ANALYTICS Book 2 Part 2 as portrayed by Stuart McAllister -Engaging todays culture with conversations that count.
If someone says that we are all sinners, the response is often,
"It is not truth or fact for everyone".
but ios that response true?
Not in reality. Let me explain:
1+1=2 is true for everyone, even if someone does not believe it...
The earth is spherical, even if someone believes it is flat...
We are all sinners, even if some do not believe that...
What is the problem?
If I can't say what is true, then how can anyone say what is false? Such an objection is really just a way of saying what is true, just contrary to the rejected truth claim. we have to ask, "is it true that it is false?" That is the only way to affirm it!
We cannot affirm a negative! Philosophy 101.
Only the truth is affirming, so every rejection can be true only by inferring another truth claim.
All truth claims are implicitly absolute.
So in denying truth, we are making a truth claim.
If folks want us to believe that they are righteous and sinless, it is they who have an evidence problem. Because the only way that is possible, is if they are Gods, because there is no such thing as a perfect man unless He is God incarnate!
Many cannot even bring themselves to consider that 'one man' was sinless and God's true Son, but in denying their sin, they expect us to believe that they are that man?
I personally am not insulted that I am rejected for speaking the truth. But I do get frustrated that people are so obstinate (like me).
Humanity rejects Jesus, and that is their individual perogative. He forces us to decide in an absolute and affirming fashion whether He was a liar or God in the flesh. It's totally up to the individual.
Those who proclaim Christ are just doing what they know is right, because they know their Lord. If we don't like it, then so what. It's their perogotive as well to call it as they see it, even if we think they're mad.
We should understand that rejecting, is equal to proclaiming truth. Many do not understand that they imply truth everytime they denounce something, and not just when they affirm something.
I don't understand the problem. If we don't like people speaking the truth, then we should be consistent and stop doing it!
We can't say that we disagree without contradicting ourself and proclaiming truth of our own.
So we should be consistent, by shutting our mouths if we do not believe in absolute truth.
Those that believe in truth should be consistent by speaking truth with boldness and without fear. They are the true rebels...
G.K. Chesterton spoke about this kind of inconsistency long ago in his book Orthodoxy:
"But the new rebel is a Skeptic, and will not entirely trust anything. He has no loyalty; therefore he can never be a real revolutionist. And the fact that he doubts everything, really gets in his way when he wants to denounce anything. For all denunciation implies a moral doctrine of some kind, and the modern revolutionist doubts not only the institution he denounces, but also the doctrine by which he denounces it.
Thus he writes one book complaining that imperial oppression insults the purity of women, and then he writes another book (about the sex problem) in which he insults it himself. He curses the Sultan because Christian girls lose their virginity and then curses Mrs. Grundy when they keep it. As a politician, he will cry out that war is a waste of life, and then, as a philosopher, that all life is a waste of time. A man denounces marriage as a lie, and then denounces aristocratic profligates for treating it as a lie. He calls a flag a bauble, and then blames the oppressors of Poland and Ireland because they take away that bauble.
The man of this school goes first to a political meeting, where he complains that savages are treated as if they were beasts; then he takes his hat and umbrella and goes on to a scientific meeting, where he proves that they practically are beasts. In short, the modern revolutionist, being an infinite skeptic, is always engaged in undermining his own mind. In his book on politics he attacks men for trampling on morality; in his book on ethics he attacks morality for trampling on men. Therefore the modern man in revolt has become practically useless for all purposes of revolt. By rebelling against everything he has lost his right to rebel against anything."

(Orthodoxy, Chapter title - The Suicide of Thought / 1908)
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : polishing

Any biters in the stream?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 06-21-2006 3:46 AM Rob has replied
 Message 5 by AdminNWR, posted 06-21-2006 1:10 PM Rob has replied

AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 8 (324193)
06-21-2006 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rob
06-21-2006 2:45 AM


Better to hear it from me first
Since I know your reasons for wanting to start this topic.
(I am going to judge it from Admin Mode
1) Make it shorter. Ever play a game of tennis...or Ping-Pong? Even Chess? It makes for a better game to start with short lobs and get a rhythm going with the opponent. The same is true in a debate. Did it ever occur to you that folk dont want to engage you in a long discussion? Its not a matter of winning or losing...its a matter of enjoying the conversation and getting to know each other.
Start with your foray into philosophy. Give a brief description of how Aristotles insights sparked you. Ask for comments. That should all be the opening post.
Then, as people answer you, add to it and present your argument, but be sensitive to how people are responding.
EDIT message #1 and i will put you in the coffee house and get you started. Make it much shorter, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rob, posted 06-21-2006 2:45 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Rob, posted 06-21-2006 9:51 AM AdminPhat has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 3 of 8 (324296)
06-21-2006 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
06-21-2006 3:46 AM


Re: Better to hear it from me first
Did it ever occur to you that folks don't want to engage you in a long discussion? Its not a matter of winning or losing...its a matter of enjoying the conversation and getting to know each other.
I actually do not have time for that. I'm wishing that I did and if so, that I possessed the social and spiritual grace necessary to blindside them with love. Even so, I tend to doubt that most in this forum have such lofty communal intentions in mind. Perhaps I'm only projecting my own weakness...
I suppose my style is really editorial. I'd like to make it as inarguable as possible and that doesn't lend itself to discussion...I see your point.
I'm not going to edit it because I can't sword fight with half a dozen different people while working 70hrs a week and trying to be a husband and father of three... I'll end up with chaos...
Perhaps it can just hang there as is...
Perhaps we need a strictly controlled editorial section??? Not a open blog, but you know.... think about it!
Rob
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 06-21-2006 3:46 AM AdminPhat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AdminNWR, posted 06-21-2006 10:51 AM Rob has not replied

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 8 (324336)
06-21-2006 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Rob
06-21-2006 9:51 AM


Great Debate anybody?
Perhaps we need a strictly controlled editorial section??? Not a open blog, but you know....
That's about what might happen in a great debate thread. A topic is limited to (usually) two participants. You avoid the "piling on" that can happen in open threads.
However, I'm not sure whether there is somebody at evcforum who wishes to debate the philosophy of truth with you.
If you are willing to consider a great debate, indicate in a reply to this message. If any other member is interested in debating you on this, they should respond in the appropriate thread below.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Rob, posted 06-21-2006 9:51 AM Rob has not replied

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 8 (324414)
06-21-2006 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rob
06-21-2006 2:45 AM


Great debate offer
I see that sidelined has offered to debate this topic with you in a Great Debate thread - see Message 8.
Please indicate whether you agree to this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rob, posted 06-21-2006 2:45 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Rob, posted 06-21-2006 8:59 PM AdminNWR has not replied
 Message 7 by Rob, posted 06-21-2006 9:03 PM AdminNWR has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 6 of 8 (324590)
06-21-2006 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by AdminNWR
06-21-2006 1:10 PM


Re: Great debate offer
Agreed!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by AdminNWR, posted 06-21-2006 1:10 PM AdminNWR has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 7 of 8 (324594)
06-21-2006 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by AdminNWR
06-21-2006 1:10 PM


Re: Great debate offer
Please indicate whether you agree to this.
Agreed!
God help me...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by AdminNWR, posted 06-21-2006 1:10 PM AdminNWR has not replied

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 8 (324608)
06-21-2006 9:39 PM


Thread copied to The Suicide of Thought... (Rob and sidelined only). This copy closed.

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