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Member (Idle past 6273 days) Posts: 139 From: Sussex, England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Return Capital Punishment - ReCaP | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Malachi-II Member (Idle past 6273 days) Posts: 139 From: Sussex, England Joined: |
While DNA evidence has helped overturn many false convictions, the Supreme Court has actually said, that proof of innocence is not in and of itself sufficient to suspend or cancel an execution. Let me rephrase that -- it doesn't matter that you are innocent, your $20 an hour lawyer screwed up during the appeal process, so you have to die. Are you seriously saying the Supreme Court condones execution of people who have been proved innocent after their initial conviction? Even allowing for stay of execution that suggests life imprisonment for an innocent person. Surely that cannot be true in the land of the free and the home of the brave!! You must be joking!
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2523 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Sadly, I'm not kidding
The decision is consistent with, and even cites, the U.S. Supreme Court Herrera decision of 1993 in which even proof of innocence may not be considered in a federal appeals court to overturn a state court conviction. In other words, the Herrera decision allowed the state to execute Herrera without hearing evidence of the man’s innocence.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Omni's reply reflects my position admirably.
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EZscience Member (Idle past 5184 days) Posts: 961 From: A wheatfield in Kansas Joined: |
Omni writes: Despite a judicial system that ferociously resists attempts to exonerate the wrongly convicted, the numbers of such exonerated prisoners continue to increase. That the administration of capital punishment in the U.S. is riddled with racism and class bias is incontestable. That the police extract false confessions and prosectuors withhold exculpatory evidence has been proven time and again. You nailed it pal.Justice in this country is only guaranteed to those who can afford the most influential lawyers - and those celebrity bastards get more than justice - they get deferential treatment. OJ and Michael Jackson are prime examples. What's left to respect in the American justice system?Certainly not enough credibility to permit any of those legal asswipes the right to determine life and death for anyone else. Edited by EZscience, : No reason given.
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Malachi-II Member (Idle past 6273 days) Posts: 139 From: Sussex, England Joined: |
I now have to concede that the death penalty should be abandoned in every state - except in the cases of those cynical bastards who corrupted our legal systems and continue to do so with impunity. They are truly worthy of removal from every level of influence.
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SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 5864 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
Perhaps you will be kind enough to share your thoughts on the staggering increase in drugs and drug associated crime. They are poor, their lives suck and they live in bad neighborhoods? Honestly, I don't know. Of course it's been proven throughout history that prohibition simply creates crime. I don't care why people take drugs.... All I know is that they do... and as a society we have choices about how to deal with the problem. Is it a criminal or medical problem? Many european countries have been far more successful with drug programs that treat drug use as a medical problem (and these programs are much less expensive). The drug war is a stupid waste of money... and that's a fact
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Malachi-II Member (Idle past 6273 days) Posts: 139 From: Sussex, England Joined: |
I don't care why people take drugs.... All I know is that they do... and as a society we have choices about how to deal with the problem. Is it a criminal or medical problem? I suspect there are many more reasons why people take drugs. You ought to be aware that drug abuse is wide spread among the rich and poor. There is no class barrier. The idea that only the poor are addicted is nonsense. The poor are simply brushed aside, as always. I cannot escape the conviction that we - societies in general - are not prepared to examine the deeper causes of drug & alcohol abuse, suicides, increasing violence - particularly among the young - and increasing moral collapse of family and community structures. In other words societies are in complete denial. We are not willing to bite the bullet and accept the mess we are in - created by ourselves. I repeat what I said earlier; we reap what we sow and get what we deserve. I have growing contempt for the social engineers, politicians and money grabbers who cynically contribute to the obvious failures in all societies. If you think seriously about it, all our lives suck. We are sleep walking through it all, pretending that wealth creation alone is the answer to every problem facing mankind. It's difficult to comprehend that the most intelligent and creative species on this planet can also be so stupid and not know it!
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Crime, especially violent crime, and especially crime among teenagers, is actually at something like a 30-year low in the US. However, the reporting of crime, especially violent crime, is much more prevalent than it used to be.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
We, you and me, unintentionally allow people to die every day, due to the global and national systems of government we live in. I don't feel any worse about the state unintentionally allowing innocent people to die than I do about me allowing innocent people to die. quote: This is the crux. If I am reading Ben correctly, he seems to be saying that because doesn't care about the lives of the innocents who die due to the unintentional consequences of global or national policies, he doesn't care about executing innocent people either. Sort of like, "I can't save any of those people, so I've decided to not care what happens to them." That attitude is, to me, deeply immoral. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
If I am reading Ben correctly, he seems to be saying that because doesn't care about the lives of the innocents who die due to the unintentional consequences of global or national policies, he doesn't care about executing innocent people either.
I think you are misreading Ben. I read Ben as saying that we live in an imperfect world, and our system of justice depends on imperfect human judgements. Therefore perfection is unachievable. The aim should be to have a very low rate of wrongful conviction, not an unachievable zero rate. I also read Ben as being concerned about wrongful convictions in cases of long prison sentences, not just in capital cases. I largely agree with Ben on this. The only way to completely eliminate conviction of innocent people is to shut down our justice system. But if we do that, it will be replaced by street justice, also resulting in punishment of innocent people.
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Malachi-II Member (Idle past 6273 days) Posts: 139 From: Sussex, England Joined: |
Crime, especially violent crime, and especially crime among teenagers, is actually at something like a 30-year low in the US. However, the reporting of crime, especially violent crime, is much more prevalent than it used to be. Are you saying there is more reporting of violent crime than there was previously and that violent crime is even less than 30 years ago, when reporting was not so prevalent? That sounds strange.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: We were not talking about convicting innocent people. This is unavoidable, as you say. We were talking about putting them to death This is, most certainly avoidable. And, I do agree that our system is imperfect, and that is exactly why we should not be putting anyone to death. Edited by schrafinator, : quote box fix Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
quote: Yey it is true, at least in the US. Sensationalism gets people's attention, and since deregulation and the consolidation of so many news sources into huge multinationals like Disney and Time/Warner, the mainstream news has become about making money rather than engaging in real journalism for the public good.
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Malachi-II Member (Idle past 6273 days) Posts: 139 From: Sussex, England Joined: |
Sensationalism gets people's attention, and since deregulation and the consolidation of so many news sources into huge multinationals like Disney and Time/Warner, the mainstream news has become about making money rather than engaging in real journalism for the public good. One might naturally assume from the above that if the US media are solely concerned with profit rather than real journalism (full news reportage) that people cannot trust information they are fed. For example, how can you be certain that violent crime is as low as you say if your source if information is the media? Are you and others aware of what is happening in Guantanamo? Are you aware of the damage the Bush administration has done to our nation's reputation abroad?
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anglagard Member (Idle past 867 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
For example, how can you be certain that violent crime is as low as you say if your source if information is the media? The media usually obtain their crime statistic information from the federal government. Here is where such information is consolidated in a government publication, the Statistical Abstract of the US, which is the most likely source of media figures: http://www.census.gov/prod/2005pubs/06statab/law.pdf The first table, based upon information from the FBI, shows overall violent crime in the US has been declining since 1992 and overall property crime has been declining since 1989. The figures are as trustworthy as the source, which is the US federal government. Despite the source of the statistics, the decentralization of the information monopoly due to the internet, among other reasons such as whistleblower legislation and seperation of powers, generally prevents such figures from being manipulated beyond recognition. The media does not have the resources to compile their own nationwide statistics, and would probably be too lazy to if they did have such resources.
Are you and others aware of what is happening in Guantanamo? Are you aware of the damage the Bush administration has done to our nation's reputation abroad? Anyone who knows to obtain information from multiple sources from throughout the world would have a better idea of what is happening than someone who relies solely on US corporate-owned news, especially the propaganda mouthpieces of the current administration, such as Fox News and certain internet sites. Edited by anglagard, : grammar
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