Right to Life Ethical Considerations

Oh, sweet mother of Jesus, give it up, holmes.How about you just believe that I am a totally unrepentant hypocrite and not worth trying to talk to, OK?Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

Thanks, crash.Saved me the trouble.

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If you don't answer, or continue to insult me, I will assume you are dodging the argument because you simply don't have an answer. That is after all what you have said to others who dodge you in that same way.

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You go right ahead and assume that, holmes, if it pleases you.Now stop dragging my thread off topic.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

[qs]So far you have provided absolutely nothing.[qs]

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I have provided nothing less than you.

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Ah, but I am not the one making a claim about the long term emotional effects of abortion, YOU are.I am perfectly willing to entertain the notion that there might be long term negative effects, but you have provided me nothing but your personal say so on the matter.Furthermore, you tell me that "data is meaningless".Well, dearheart, that means that your affidavits are meaningless, because those are data.Data gathered in a highly biased manner, but still data.I think what you want to say is "any data that contradicts my preferred conclusion" is meaningless.I notice that you made no comment upon the "I'm Not Sorry" website.How many of those affidavits have you read?

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obgynsurvey.com Click archives....Volume 58, 2003, January/ cme program volume 67) Long term physical and phsycholigical health consequences of induced abortion: Review of the evidence
This can be viewed directly by googling the tilte. I found you must be a member of the medical sight and purchase the publication.

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A few others for refference:
abortionfact.com Post abortion stress disorder is discussed.

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"Post Abortion Stress disorder" is a fake scientific-sounding moniker made up by anti-abortion people.It is not recognized as a syndrome or disorder by any of the major mental health professional associations such as the Amarican Psychological Association, and the American Psychiatric Association.It's bogus.Of course, I'm not saying that some women don't have trauma and stress after an abortion, but your claim that abortion is a cause of long term mental health problems in many or most women who have them has yet to be supported.The first sentence from "PSYCHOLOGICAL REACTIONS REPORTED AFTER ABORTION": This shows that their sample is biased from the outset and that no effort was made to work with data from a representative sample of people who had abortions.Found this:

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afterabortion.org Click on research

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That is an anti-choice Christian-based site which provides false and misleading information, including that PAD exists.Do you have something specific at this site that you believe supports your view?

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The Emotional Impact of Abortion and Post-Abortion Syndrome

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This is also a Christian-based site which has New-Testament advice about sexuality for singles, and also claims that "many" women suffer long term spychological problems after abortion but provides absoluutely no citations to any evidence to support this bald assertion.Sorry, you'll have to do better than this.Remember what I said: You need to get much more picky about the websites and evidence you accept. Those Christian-based anti-choice sites are dishonest.In addition, the links you posted were pretty much naked. Can you please discuss what is at those links, indicating what, exactly, supports your claims?I'm not here to do your research for you.

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Many claim to have had a lovely trouble free abortion experience. What contribution do you feel it makes to the discussion other than there are people who feel this way. What is your point in presenting this sight?

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My point in presenting this site is to show you that if you are basing your opinion on the long term effects of abortion on the mental health of women on the couple of hundred negative affidavits you have read in the past, then the several hundred positive affidavits at that website should at least show you that there are just as many women who have had such positive experiences that they wanted to share them with others.So now your view of the sorts of affidavits that exist can be much more balanced and not so one-sided.

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Yes yes...pot and kettle. Avoid the condescending nonsense and you'll do just fine.

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This is unresponsive and avoidant.If you say that "data is meaningless", then you are saying that your affidavits are meaningless.Do you believe that "data is meaningless", including your own data?Yes or no?Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

I fail utterly to see how what you posted has anything but a extremely vague, barely-tangential relationship to anything I am discussing with 2ice.2ice has made the claim that many or most women who have had abortions suffer long term psychological damage based upon a couple of hundred negative affidavids he read in abortion clinic waiting rooms.I am discussing that, not "legal protection" for anybody.2ice has never said that he opposed legalized abortion, anyway, so that is a non-issue.So.Stop dragging the thread off topic. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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I understand that a significant number of people are negatively impacted by the choice of abortion.

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How many is a "significant number"?Define "negatively impacted".

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Even if I use the example of 1% that is roughly 13,000 people per year over the last 30 years. 390,000 women. It does not account for any men.
This is for people with long lasting severe emotional problems.

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So, that is a significant number to you?One percent?You condemn a safe and legal medical procedure that no woman in the US is forced to undergo, when the best predictor of a woman's mental health after an abortion is her mental health before the abortion?Well, I disagree that one percent is a "significant number" of people.I'm not saying that their situation isn't pitiable, but that's the thing about life and the choices one has to make.If those women felt that abortion was a horrible thing, they shouldn't have had one. And, the people at those right-wing religious websites that have made up phony medical-sounding terminology for a syndrome that no legitimate major mental health body recognizes are immoral. They lie.Remember, the research shows that the major emotion felt by the vast majority of women who have abortions is relief. In the studies done which have followed a representative sample (as opposed to your highly biased sample) of women for several years after their procedure, the vast majority of women were still feeling positive about their decision and were suffering no ill-effects related to the abortion.This is in direct opposition to your claim about women who have had abortions, which was:

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Follow these same people as time goes by and see how many come to feel a sense of loss and suffer depression.

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Well, we have done those studies where we have taken a random, representative sample of women who have had abortions and followed them for several years.And very, very few of these women suffer depression. Furthermore, the ones who do have problems are likely to have not been emotionally stable before they chose to have the procedure.Also, in searching back through this thread to find your exact quote, I happen to notice that you have left quite a few of my questions unanswered, so I thought I'd revive a couple of them.Regarding your notion that life begins at conception:

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There are even those who will continue with this.

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At what point does the unborn child cease to "be" or "become" a human? At what point does a human have the right of protection under law?

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The nano-second of conception, when the sperm infuses the egg.

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So, do you suggest we start searching the menstrual fluid of all women who might possibly be expelling a fertilized egg from their bodies, since most fertilized eggs never implant? After all, those fertilized eggs are human life, according to you, with all the rights that you or I have, right?Also, do you suggest that girls and women who are impregnated by their rapists be forced to carry their pregnancies to term? After all, that fertilized egg is entitled to human rights the same as yours or mine, right?And if that fertilized egg has the same rights as you or I implants itself inside a woman's fallopian tube, what then?

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If that were true then partial birth abortions would not be illegal.

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There's no such thing as "partial birth abortion".That is a non-medical, inflamatory term invented by radical anti-choice political activists.

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Every American recognizes the rights of women. What you are doing is pretending that women have the right to kill their children in utero, when they don't have the right to murder. So, what's the difference? Really. What is the difference?

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A fetus is not a child.That's the difference.And, if you respected the rights of women, you wouldn't be assuming some right to meddle in our personal medical or reproductive business.

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You can't just use abortion as some back-up plan to cover up no plan to be begin with.

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You do know that most people who get abortions were using contraception that failed, don't you?And by the way, how much have you pushed your local schools to teach all children accurate and comprehensive reproductive health from an early age, and pushed to make contraception free and available to all who want it? That would go a long way toward reducing unwanted pregnancy.

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The shining moment of choice has long since passed in a rush of emotion. Choice doesn't factor into it anymore than it would if I suddenly decided to negate the life of people EvC. If I killed every member on here it would be my choice, but would my choice be justifiable because I felt like it? Because I have my own personal rights? Because if I'm here by accident, I can remove people by incident? Where are the guidelines?

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Do you really, honestly, rationally expect me to accept that a several week-old fetus is the same as a walking-talking independent adult?

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Its simple, most women aren't aware that they are pregnant well into the first month and often into the second. Virtually any pregnancy test will tell you if you are pregnant by that point. But as a rule of thumb, I would say that so long as foreign objects don't penetrate the cervix there is no risk of terminating a pregnancy on accident.

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Er, this doesn't answer my question at all.Most fertilized eggs, which by your definition are human and must be afforded the same rights as you and I, never implant.If those human beings have the same rights as you and I, should't we be at least making some effort to try to save them? Shouldn't we be collecting the menstrual fluid just in case there's a person in there?

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Yes, of course they have rights as well. Afterall, its not the babies fault, its the rapist sperm donar's fault. There is no sense in turning one bad situation into another bad situation. Of course, I would understand if the woman could not bear the thought of rearing her rapists child. Any adoption agency would be more than happy to rectify that for the mother.

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So, a fetus actually has, according to you, more rights than a woman, correct?As in, a fetus's right to take up residence in a woman's uterus always trumps those of a woman to retain her body autonomy, potentally permenantly disfiguring her body, exposing her to risks to her health, mental health, and her very life?I can tell that you are a man. Do you think that carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth is some kind of walk in the park for a woman or a girl, physically or mentally?Are YOU goinf to pay the medical expenses? What about the funeral expenses if she dies? Are you going to support her other children if she is disabled or killed by this pregnancy?

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That's a great question. You're the only person ever to ask me that. An ectopic pregnancy is the one instance where I personally believe that abortion is acceptable. The reason being, so far there is no way to reverse an ectopic pregnancy once the fertilized egg begins to develop. As well, there is no concievable way that the mother would survive this as the baby was growing larger. The baby could not live outside of the womb in their own despite any neo-natal care. There is no way to save them both, which in this case, you have to be primarily concerned for the mothers health.

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So, a woman is just a walking uterus to you, then, and only the death of that uterus should allow any consideration to the woman or girl at all.The fetus's human rights trump the woman's every single time.It's so funny that you claimed to respect women's individual rights before.

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Is that so?

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Yes, that is so.

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Then what is thisprocedure called?

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Intact dilation and extraction.

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Are you suggesting that a law was passed against fictitious medical procedures?

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Yes.Well, if not "fictitious", then intentionally vague so it would apply to other abrtion procedures. Oh, and they are not illegal in every state.From the wiki:

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Even supposing that it was wholly invented to illicit sympathy, what about this procedure? Is D&E or D&C invented too?

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No, those are medical terms which refer to specific procedures.

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Then perhaps you can set the record straight for when a person gets to become a full-fledged person. Because as of now there appears to be no clear distinction.

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For sure, at birth.But before that, it's a sliding scale. A bundle of cells isn't a person, for example. A fetus that has no self-awareness and no consciousness also isn't a person.For an exact moment? Sorry, life doesn't work like that. This is a gray area.I know you right wingers don't like ambiguity, but there it is.

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Saving a life, any life, is my buisness.

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So, you're a pacifist, opposed to all war and also the death penalty?

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That's like saying the police don't have the right to meddle in your affairs because you are exercising your right to murder your husband.

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My husband is a person. A several week old fetus is not aware of anything, has no consciousness. They are not comparable.

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It doesn't fly. But I do respect the rights of women.

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...except when they have a fertilized egg inside of them, and then you consider that fertilized egg's rights to trump those of women.

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Yes, I do know that. But is that supposed to make the act all peachy?

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What act?

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No, talking about abstinence til marriage and then turning around by saying, "but in the event you dismiss everything I just told you, here are some 'rough riders,' 'trojans,' these here glow in the dark, this one is supposed to be good for anal sex, and this one tastes like cinnamin. But hey, I was being serious about that abstinence thing." It kind of sends the wrong message. Aside from which, how young should we be discussing "reproductive freedom?"

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We should be teaching age-appropriate sexual health K-12.And can you please refrain from the strawman characterizations of sex education classes?And you do know that abstinence-only programs don't work, and actually lead to teens being more likely to engage in anal and oral sex, don't you? They do delay teens choosing to have intercourse by about a year, but they do not prevent it. Also, those teens are less likely to use contraception or take safer sex precautions because they don't have the knowledge or the tools to do so.Abstinece-only is an abject failure.And I thought you goal was reducing abortion?Now you seem to be saying that your goal is keeping those in the groups most at risk ignorant of how to prevent unwanted pregnancy.Does that seem a smart way to go about things if reducing unwanted pregnancy was your goal?

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To answer your question better, yes I would expect that.

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That's stupid.Sorry, but it is.

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Does walking and talking and independance mean more?

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Yes, of course it does.

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Most people are particularly horrified when children die.

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Yes. But fetuses are not children.

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That's why Al-Jazeera is sure to post pictures of babies that became collateral damage. There's something about it that really allows for us to empathize with their innocence. Do you feel no remorse for children that die, or if even if you do, is it worse or easier to stomach when an adult dies in front of you?

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I don't like any person to die.But a bundle of cells that doesn't have any self-awareness, can't think, can't feel, and can't reason isn't a person.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

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We comunicate that we believe in the life and value of unborn children.

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No.We comunicate that we believe in the life and value of people who are already here, including children.We don't do very well on that score, do we?Here in the US, we let millions of children go hungry every day.We let millions of them go without health insurance.We let most of them go to second rate or even deplorable schools where a shocking number of them come out illiterate.We imprison lots and lots of them as a result of this impoverished upbringing.Our rates of death and physical and emotional damage to children and teens due to abuse and neglect are disgusting.We let thousands of children bounce through ten or more foster care homes until they age out of the adoption system and are left with nobody.We have a shameful infant mortality rate among other industrialized nations, showing that we care little to make sure we provide adequately for pregnant women.Sure, you desperately want to protect these glowing, faultless infants, but the moment it pops out of the birth canal, what are you prepared to do?What do you consider your responsibility, as a person who is against abortion, once it's born to that woman who doesn't want it?What is your responsibility to the woman, when she suffers permenant disfigurement from the pregnancy, or dies from a complication that she didn't know about because she wasn't getting adequate pre-natal care? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

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Golly-gosh, I always saw it as a symbiotic relationship between a mother and a child developed by an absolute natural occurance.

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Does something that causes vomiting daily and being nearly constantly nauseous for a month sound like a "symbiotic" relationship to you?How about something that gives you life-threatening high blood pressure or diabetes? Both of these conditions are fairly common.Let's also not forget that during birth many babies have to be cut out of the woman because it's going to kill her otherwise.I don't think you understand what "symbiosis" is.Symbiosis is a mutually beneficial arrangement between two organisms.Pregnancy would be more accurately described as a parasitic relationship.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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Most fertilized eggs don't implant? Okay, and how have you deduced this information?

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From the Stanford Medical Magazine Stanford Medical Magazine

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However, even in the event that such a thing could be known, yes I think an attempt to save a fertilized fetus is a worthy endeavor.

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What is a "fertilized fetus"?Can we please stick to using the proper medical terms for the stages of reproduction?The oocyte is a fertilized egg. Then it becomes a zygote, then a blastocyst, then an embryo, then a fetus.

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But one would first have to know whether or not they pregnant to begin with.

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That's just it, though. If the egg doesn't implant, they aren't pregnant, are they?And I want to be cc'd when you send your Senator or local church group your plan to collect the menstrual fluid of billions of women and search it for fertilized eggs.

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No, they have equal rights. Don't kill the mother, don't kill the baby.

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1) Does another person have the right to disfigure you? Do they have the right to demand that you feed it? Give you a life threatening medical condition? Does someone have a right to force you to endure hours of intense pain and exhausting physical effort? Does someone have the right to demand that you pay thousands of dollars for them to exist? Does someone have the right to demand that you curtail your normal activities just because they want to be with you 24 hours a day?1) It's not a baby.

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The fetus didn't will itself in the uterus.

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Right.Therefore, something without a will of it's own shouldn't be given full human rights.

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Try not to lost sight that it was the parents actions that got them in the situation to begin with.

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Not in the case of rape. Or incest.But it doesn't matter.You need to explain to me how something that has no will, no thoughts, no consciousness, and no self should be given nearly complete power over the body of a person who DOES have all of those things.

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Secondly, I find the "my body, my choice," mantra to be little more than a diatribe. For starters, the fetus isn't apart of her body.

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But the uterus that the egg implants into IS a part of her body.Are you saying that she stops owning her uterus at some point?

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Secondly, I find it ironic that a woman can opt for any reason whatsoever to engage in abortion, which is a surgical procedure, but she can't elect to have a hysterectomy for any and all reasons, even though her uterus really is apart of her body.If a womans reproductive rights are hers without imposition, without hindrance, then why can't she elect to have whatever procedure she wants?

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Of course she can elect to have a hysterectomy for any reason. Some women do.Why do you think she can't? How bizzare.

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No, I don't but I also don't think its a tragedy of all tragedies.

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Women die from complications of pregnancy and delivery at a rate over ten times greater than that of abortion. And that's just in the US. The number one cause of death for women worldwide is pregnancy complications.It is a big deal, physically and emotionally, to be pregnant and to give birth. One's body goes throuh a LOT. Most woman suffer some permenent disfigurement.

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I also wouldn't play down the actual procedure of abortion either, along with its future medical and mental risks.

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Women die from complications of pregnancy and delivery at a rate over ten times greater than that of abortion.

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Unlike Planned Parenthood's claims that longterm sadness is "extremely rare," I must be one of those people to have met many of those rare individuals. Imagine the odds.

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Oh, brother, not another one.Look, the women who have had abortions who do not feel ashamed or sorry who also know you are anti-abortion are probably not going to tell you. Even if they don't know you are anti-abortion, it's just not something most of them would feel the need to constantly talk about, unlike the people who regret their descision.I know several women who have had abortions that they do not regret. They are happily married and mothers of several children each.Feel free to use your biased anecdotal evidence if you wish. I'll stick with properly conducted, long-term studies which folowed a representative (random) sample of women for two years and found no evidence of lasting emotional harm from abortion.

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What is my involvement? Am I supposed to married to this woman?

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No.You are the person demanding that every pregnancy be carried to term, so you must be prepared to provide for the women and girls you demand this of.

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I guess we could turn this around on you. If you told your friend that abortions are great and that they don't hurt, but tickle, and she ends up crippled, maimed, or dead are you going to pay for her injuries?

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This isn't a valid analogy.I'm not suggesting that anyone have an abortion or carry a pregnancy to term on the basis of my personal moral position.I am suggesting that people be permitted to make whatever informed medical and moral choice they wish to.

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Um, I have no idea how you could have extrapolated that message from what I said. If there is no chance for the survival of both but there is a chance to keep at least one of them alive, then keep one of them alive as best you can. I hardly see how that makes women walking uteri.

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Your only consideration is the life of the woman.You don't care if she is healthy, you don't care if she is happy, miserable or mentally unstable, you don't care if her life is completely upended, you don't care if her body is disfigured or if she risks her life in other ways. All you care about is if her uterus can house the fetus.That means that, to you, she is nothing more than a uterus-support system.She is nothing more than a walking uterus.

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No, they have equal rights.

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See my list of questions above.

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But in your scenario the women has all of the rights and the fetus has zero.

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The fetus can't think, can't reason, has no consciousness.It isn't a person, so it does not have the same rights as someone who does.

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If she doesn't want to donate blood, that's her right not to.

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Well, then. Since the fetus gets all of it's nutrients from the blood it shares with the woman's, then you must support a woman's right to not donate her blood nutrients to the fetus.More than one woman and girl has starved herself to induce abortion.

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Lets say that a man accidentally impregnated the woman, and neither of them wanted to concieve. However, after some time passes, all of those motherly predilictions start to bubble up and she decides to concieve. The boyfriend is outraged. He doesn't want a child. Isn't his choice not to care for or to pay for the expenses of this child? Men don't have the same rights as women? Men are just walking testicles? Men are forced to bear a responsibility they never asked for? What say you now?

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That's a good question.If it has been clearly communicated that he doesn't ever want children, and she gave him every indication that she felt exactly the same way, but once pregnant she decides she wants to keep it, I do not think that the man should be required to pay to support the resulting child.

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Whether or not we call it Partial Birth Abortion doesn't negate that an extremely disturbing "medical procedure" is taking place.

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Have you ever bothered to learn why these procedures are done, and how often?

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Well, to be sure, you are a bundle of cells too.

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You knew what I meant. I am much more than this:

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As for self-awareness, what are you referring to? Fetus are aware of themselves, as if it means anything.

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Self-awareness. Being aware that one is an entity.How can you tell they are aware of themselves? Are they thinking? When do they start doing these things?

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What about a several month old fetus?

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Nope. Not a person.But closer.

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"There" what is?

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There is no exact moment when a zygote or a fetus becomes a "fully-fledged" person except, for sure, at birth.Before that, it is a sliding scale. It is ambiguous, and that makes people who like easy, black and white moral choices uncomfortable.It is difficult to grapple with ambiguity and shades of gray, but that is the reality of the abortion debate. There are no easy answers, reagardless of your radical, extreme views.

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You want to talk to Kindergartners about sex?

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Yes, in age-appropriate ways.Have you forgotten that 6 year old children play "doctor"? they are curious about bodies in general, so why not teach them very basic differences between boys and girls, and that sexuality is part of life and not to be ashamed of? Also, have you forgotten that children that age and younger are not immune from sexual molestestation? Wouldn't it be good to teach them proper words for things and what is appropriate kinds of touching, etc?

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Do you have children? Do you understand the mentality of that age bracket? My daughter will be starting 2nd grade in a few days and she does not yet have the understanding on sex.

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I wouldn't expect her to.Remember, I said age-appropriate.

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If I were to give her some of the details on how babies are made and the mechanism used to produce one, she'd probably be completely bewildered.

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That's why you might not give that much detail at that point.But I'll bet she knows all of her body parts, right? Does she know the correct words for her genitals?

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Having said all that, there is a time in the not-so-distant future when I will discuss this with her. And since you're on a big kick for personal rights, it is not the job of an elementary school to be teaching my kids a single thing on sex because its inappropriate.

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Why? Isn't sexual health a part of general health? It's only your idea that sex is dirty or shameful that makes you consider it such a taboo.It is a long-established fact that the abortion and STD rates are very low in Western countries which have early and comprehensive national sex education and easy access to contraception and safer sex protections, like condoms.The more you write, the more you give the impression that you are more concerned with keeping kids ignorant of sexual health facts than in preventing unwanted pregnancy and abortion in the misguided hope that if they are ignorant of those facts, they will not have sex at all.Well, hon, let me tell you, they have sex no matter if they know how to prevent unwanted pregnancy or STD's or not.

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This is the kind of nonsense that exacerbates the problem. I'll kindly ask you to look at Sweden as a classic example that incessantly talking about sex doesn't mitigate the chances of unwanted pregnancy, it only interests the kids all the more.

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Found this study: So, what about Sweden?And, dude, I don't think that sex ed makes kids any more interested in sex than they already are. In fact, making it "forbidden and taboo" makes it even more attractive. The minute anything becomes mundane and unlikely to shock the adults, it loses it's rebellious attraction.

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I'll also kindly ask you to look at the rate of unwanted pregnancies of the 40's and 50's when talking about sex in school was unheard of.

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OK, I'll look. Please provide the stats.

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LOL! No, I sure didn't. How many abstinence-only programs are allowed through the doors? I mean, who knows whether or not it would work.

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Er, ever since the federal money earmarked for such programs became available five years ago or so, every state in the country except for California has participated.The conclusion of a study of several of the programs?

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Well, I don't know where you have garnered your opinion from but maybe you can tell where you heard this.

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Medical News TodayIt's amazing that you don't know any of this stuff.And you claim to care about preventing unwanted pregnancy and abortion. Could've fooled me.

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I have no problem with contraceptives. But if you give kids the go ahead to have sex then you're just going to have another 1960-70's era of unmitigated sex, where its going to take a deadly disease, like AIDS, to make people get serious about it.

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We DO have HIV, plus a whole lot of other STD's, and unwanted pregnancy to make people get serious about it.Keeping someone ignorant of ways to mitigate undesireable and unintended consequences of an action they are very, very likely to engage in is never, ever a good way to keep them from engaging in it.If a kid wants to have sex, not knowing how to protect themselves from contracting a disease, or not knowing how to effectively prevent an unwanted pregnancy is not going to stop them. Ignorance will not stop them.The cold, hard, reality of the statistics shows us this.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

Holmes, I feel a little bit of an obligation to tell you that I do not read your posts to me anymore.It's not because I am "afraid" of taking on the points you raise. Indeed, in the past I have judged some of your arguments as very good points that are worthy of being addressed.However, I do not read your posts to me anymore so I am not tempted to respond. This is for the sole reason that I know that it is highly, highly likely that I will unsuccessfuly spend a great deal of the debate trying to correct your misrepresentation and distortion of my position.This is too bad, but there it is. It's just not worth the frustration of being misrepresented over and over again and for the correction to be ignored just as often. It's boring.Anyway, just thought you'd want to know.

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"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

quote:

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Sometimes I feel the problem is that you are not used to professional debate where a person must look several steps ahead and deal with permutations.

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Looking several steps ahead?That's what you think you are doing when you willfully misrepresent my current stated position?LOL!What a beautiful contortion!