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Member (Idle past 4984 days) Posts: 228 From: jo'burg, RSA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Right to Life Ethical Considerations | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Oh, sweet mother of Jesus, give it up, holmes.
How about you just believe that I am a totally unrepentant hypocrite and not worth trying to talk to, OK? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Thanks, crash.
Saved me the trouble.
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You go right ahead and assume that, holmes, if it pleases you. Now stop dragging my thread off topic. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[qs]So far you have provided absolutely nothing.[qs]
quote: Ah, but I am not the one making a claim about the long term emotional effects of abortion, YOU are. I am perfectly willing to entertain the notion that there might be long term negative effects, but you have provided me nothing but your personal say so on the matter. Furthermore, you tell me that "data is meaningless". Well, dearheart, that means that your affidavits are meaningless, because those are data. Data gathered in a highly biased manner, but still data. I think what you want to say is "any data that contradicts my preferred conclusion" is meaningless. I notice that you made no comment upon the "I'm Not Sorry" website. How many of those affidavits have you read?
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: quote: "Post Abortion Stress disorder" is a fake scientific-sounding moniker made up by anti-abortion people. It is not recognized as a syndrome or disorder by any of the major mental health professional associations such as the Amarican Psychological Association, and the American Psychiatric Association. It's bogus. Of course, I'm not saying that some women don't have trauma and stress after an abortion, but your claim that abortion is a cause of long term mental health problems in many or most women who have them has yet to be supported. The first sentence from "PSYCHOLOGICAL REACTIONS REPORTED AFTER ABORTION":
This survey instrument was distributed to women who had contact with WEBA, Victims of Choice, or Last Harvest Ministries. This shows that their sample is biased from the outset and that no effort was made to work with data from a representative sample of people who had abortions. Found this:
Of course, the overwhelming scientific evidence shows that abortion does not hurt women ” physically or mentally. In the late 1980s, President Reagan tried a strategy similar to Reardon's and asked his like-minded surgeon general, C. Everett Koop, to conduct a study on the mental pain caused by abortion. To everyone's surprise, Koop determined that there was insufficient evidence of trauma. Psychological problems were "minuscule from a public health perspective," he said. The American Psychological Association followed up by asking a group of six experts to undertake a special review. The panel concluded in 1989 that terminating an unwanted pregnancy posed no hazard to women's mental health. The predominant sensation women felt following an abortion was relief, the group said. And in August 2000, a study conducted by Brenda Major at the University of California at Santa Barbara ” the latest among many ” confirmed those findings. Severe post-abortion psychological distress is extremely rare, affecting just one percent of patients. "Most women were satisfied with their decision, and believed that they had benefited more than they had been harmed," said Major, who, along with other researchers, tracked women for two years after they had first-trimester abortions (88 percent of abortions are performed in the first trimester, and therefore represent the typical experience). The best predictor of post-abortion mental health, it turns out, is a woman's mental health prior to the abortion. "Abortion does not cure depression or bipolar disorders; nor does it cause them," says Suzanne Poppema, a retired Seattle abortion provider, now an international consultant on reproductive health issues. She and many others have little tolerance for PAS ” "because it doesn't exist," she says. The overwhelming emotion she witnessed at her clinic, she says, was relief; PAS is merely an attempt to scare women, and she points out that if women do feel negative emotions, they are probably a result of the antiabortion movement itself. After all, the picketers who scream "murderer" at women entering clinics are significant stress-inducers, too. quote: That is an anti-choice Christian-based site which provides false and misleading information, including that PAD exists. Do you have something specific at this site that you believe supports your view?
quote: This is also a Christian-based site which has New-Testament advice about sexuality for singles, and also claims that "many" women suffer long term spychological problems after abortion but provides absoluutely no citations to any evidence to support this bald assertion. Sorry, you'll have to do better than this. Remember what I said:
I am perfectly willing to entertain the notion that there might be long term negative effects, but you have provided me nothing but your personal say so on the matter. You need to get much more picky about the websites and evidence you accept. Those Christian-based anti-choice sites are dishonest. In addition, the links you posted were pretty much naked. Can you please discuss what is at those links, indicating what, exactly, supports your claims? I'm not here to do your research for you.
quote: My point in presenting this site is to show you that if you are basing your opinion on the long term effects of abortion on the mental health of women on the couple of hundred negative affidavits you have read in the past, then the several hundred positive affidavits at that website should at least show you that there are just as many women who have had such positive experiences that they wanted to share them with others. So now your view of the sorts of affidavits that exist can be much more balanced and not so one-sided.
Well, dearheart, that means that your affidavits are meaningless, because those are data quote: This is unresponsive and avoidant. If you say that "data is meaningless", then you are saying that your affidavits are meaningless. Do you believe that "data is meaningless", including your own data? Yes or no? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
I fail utterly to see how what you posted has anything but a extremely vague, barely-tangential relationship to anything I am discussing with 2ice.
2ice has made the claim that many or most women who have had abortions suffer long term psychological damage based upon a couple of hundred negative affidavids he read in abortion clinic waiting rooms. I am discussing that, not "legal protection" for anybody. 2ice has never said that he opposed legalized abortion, anyway, so that is a non-issue. So. Stop dragging the thread off topic. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: How many is a "significant number"? Define "negatively impacted".
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So, that is a significant number to you? One percent? You condemn a safe and legal medical procedure that no woman in the US is forced to undergo, when the best predictor of a woman's mental health after an abortion is her mental health before the abortion? Well, I disagree that one percent is a "significant number" of people. I'm not saying that their situation isn't pitiable, but that's the thing about life and the choices one has to make. If those women felt that abortion was a horrible thing, they shouldn't have had one. And, the people at those right-wing religious websites that have made up phony medical-sounding terminology for a syndrome that no legitimate major mental health body recognizes are immoral. They lie. Remember, the research shows that the major emotion felt by the vast majority of women who have abortions is relief. In the studies done which have followed a representative sample (as opposed to your highly biased sample) of women for several years after their procedure, the vast majority of women were still feeling positive about their decision and were suffering no ill-effects related to the abortion. This is in direct opposition to your claim about women who have had abortions, which was:
quote: Well, we have done those studies where we have taken a random, representative sample of women who have had abortions and followed them for several years. And very, very few of these women suffer depression. Furthermore, the ones who do have problems are likely to have not been emotionally stable before they chose to have the procedure. Also, in searching back through this thread to find your exact quote, I happen to notice that you have left quite a few of my questions unanswered, so I thought I'd revive a couple of them. Regarding your notion that life begins at conception:
Possibly, but it is also possible that perfectly viable fertilized eggs just missed the wall of the uterus. Or, the woman was stressed or not eating well and her body prevented her from allowing a perfectly viable fertilized egg from implanting. Perhaps she has a physical problem in which perfectly viable fertilized eggs cannot ever implant. We do not know, anyway, if those fertilized eggs are viable or not until we collect them. Don't you want to give all of that human life, that some people would give their lives for, the benefit of the doubt? ..and yet there are those who would have chosen to continue with the pregnancy (except for a tubal pregnancy), despite the risks. You chose abortion. quote: Exactly. Does that mean that because you made the choice to end the pregnancy instead of possibly sacrifice the mother's life and/or bring a severely ill infant into the world, you threw away the "lump of flesh" into the "trash"? Or is it different for you? Your reasons for getting the abortion were "good enough", and you are fit to judge if anyone else's reasons are good enough?
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: quote: So, do you suggest we start searching the menstrual fluid of all women who might possibly be expelling a fertilized egg from their bodies, since most fertilized eggs never implant? After all, those fertilized eggs are human life, according to you, with all the rights that you or I have, right? Also, do you suggest that girls and women who are impregnated by their rapists be forced to carry their pregnancies to term? After all, that fertilized egg is entitled to human rights the same as yours or mine, right? And if that fertilized egg has the same rights as you or I implants itself inside a woman's fallopian tube, what then?
quote: There's no such thing as "partial birth abortion". That is a non-medical, inflamatory term invented by radical anti-choice political activists.
quote: A fetus is not a child. That's the difference. And, if you respected the rights of women, you wouldn't be assuming some right to meddle in our personal medical or reproductive business.
quote: You do know that most people who get abortions were using contraception that failed, don't you? And by the way, how much have you pushed your local schools to teach all children accurate and comprehensive reproductive health from an early age, and pushed to make contraception free and available to all who want it? That would go a long way toward reducing unwanted pregnancy.
quote: Do you really, honestly, rationally expect me to accept that a several week-old fetus is the same as a walking-talking independent adult?
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
So, do you suggest we start searching the menstrual fluid of all women who might possibly be expelling a fertilized egg from their bodies, since most fertilized eggs never implant? After all, those fertilized eggs are human life, according to you, with all the rights that you or I have, right? quote: Er, this doesn't answer my question at all. Most fertilized eggs, which by your definition are human and must be afforded the same rights as you and I, never implant. If those human beings have the same rights as you and I, should't we be at least making some effort to try to save them? Shouldn't we be collecting the menstrual fluid just in case there's a person in there?
Also, do you suggest that girls and women who are impregnated by their rapists be forced to carry their pregnancies to term? After all, that fertilized egg is entitled to human rights the same as yours or mine, right? quote: So, a fetus actually has, according to you, more rights than a woman, correct? As in, a fetus's right to take up residence in a woman's uterus always trumps those of a woman to retain her body autonomy, potentally permenantly disfiguring her body, exposing her to risks to her health, mental health, and her very life? I can tell that you are a man. Do you think that carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth is some kind of walk in the park for a woman or a girl, physically or mentally? Are YOU goinf to pay the medical expenses? What about the funeral expenses if she dies? Are you going to support her other children if she is disabled or killed by this pregnancy?
And if that fertilized egg has the same rights as you or I implants itself inside a woman's fallopian tube, what then? quote: So, a woman is just a walking uterus to you, then, and only the death of that uterus should allow any consideration to the woman or girl at all. The fetus's human rights trump the woman's every single time. It's so funny that you claimed to respect women's individual rights before.
There's no such thing as "partial birth abortion". That is a non-medical, inflamatory term invented by radical anti-choice political activists. quote: Yes, that is so.
quote: Intact dilation and extraction.
quote: Yes. Well, if not "fictitious", then intentionally vague so it would apply to other abrtion procedures. Oh, and they are not illegal in every state. From the wiki:
Partial-birth abortion (PBA) is a non-medical term used to refer to some late-term abortion procedures. [2] While the term partial-birth abortion mainly refers to the Intact dilation and extraction procedure, courts have found that legislation intended to ban so-called partial-birth abortions could be interpreted to apply to some dilation and evacuation (D&E) procedures. quote: No, those are medical terms which refer to specific procedures.
A fetus is not a child. That's the difference. quote: For sure, at birth. But before that, it's a sliding scale. A bundle of cells isn't a person, for example. A fetus that has no self-awareness and no consciousness also isn't a person. For an exact moment? Sorry, life doesn't work like that. This is a gray area. I know you right wingers don't like ambiguity, but there it is.
And, if you respected the rights of women, you wouldn't be assuming some right to meddle in our personal medical or reproductive business. quote: So, you're a pacifist, opposed to all war and also the death penalty?
quote: My husband is a person. A several week old fetus is not aware of anything, has no consciousness. They are not comparable.
quote: ...except when they have a fertilized egg inside of them, and then you consider that fertilized egg's rights to trump those of women.
You do know that most people who get abortions were using contraception that failed, don't you? quote: What act?
And by the way, how much have you pushed your local schools to teach all children accurate and comprehensive reproductive health from an early age, and pushed to make contraception free and available to all who want it? That would go a long way toward reducing unwanted pregnancy. quote: We should be teaching age-appropriate sexual health K-12. And can you please refrain from the strawman characterizations of sex education classes? And you do know that abstinence-only programs don't work, and actually lead to teens being more likely to engage in anal and oral sex, don't you? They do delay teens choosing to have intercourse by about a year, but they do not prevent it. Also, those teens are less likely to use contraception or take safer sex precautions because they don't have the knowledge or the tools to do so. Abstinece-only is an abject failure. And I thought you goal was reducing abortion? Now you seem to be saying that your goal is keeping those in the groups most at risk ignorant of how to prevent unwanted pregnancy. Does that seem a smart way to go about things if reducing unwanted pregnancy was your goal?
Do you really, honestly, rationally expect me to accept that a several week-old fetus is the same as a walking-talking independent adult? quote: That's stupid. Sorry, but it is.
quote: Yes, of course it does.
quote: Yes. But fetuses are not children.
quote: I don't like any person to die. But a bundle of cells that doesn't have any self-awareness, can't think, can't feel, and can't reason isn't a person. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given. "Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!" - Ned Flanders "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No. We comunicate that we believe in the life and value of people who are already here, including children. We don't do very well on that score, do we? Here in the US, we let millions of children go hungry every day. We let millions of them go without health insurance. We let most of them go to second rate or even deplorable schools where a shocking number of them come out illiterate. We imprison lots and lots of them as a result of this impoverished upbringing. Our rates of death and physical and emotional damage to children and teens due to abuse and neglect are disgusting. We let thousands of children bounce through ten or more foster care homes until they age out of the adoption system and are left with nobody. We have a shameful infant mortality rate among other industrialized nations, showing that we care little to make sure we provide adequately for pregnant women. Sure, you desperately want to protect these glowing, faultless infants, but the moment it pops out of the birth canal, what are you prepared to do? What do you consider your responsibility, as a person who is against abortion, once it's born to that woman who doesn't want it? What is your responsibility to the woman, when she suffers permenant disfigurement from the pregnancy, or dies from a complication that she didn't know about because she wasn't getting adequate pre-natal care? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given. "Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!" - Ned Flanders "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Does something that causes vomiting daily and being nearly constantly nauseous for a month sound like a "symbiotic" relationship to you? How about something that gives you life-threatening high blood pressure or diabetes? Both of these conditions are fairly common. Let's also not forget that during birth many babies have to be cut out of the woman because it's going to kill her otherwise. I don't think you understand what "symbiosis" is. Symbiosis is a mutually beneficial arrangement between two organisms. Pregnancy would be more accurately described as a parasitic relationship. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: From the Stanford Medical Magazine Stanford Medical Magazine Even after implantation, spontaneous abortions can occur. In the normal course of human reproduction, about 60 percent of embryos spontaneously abort and are simply flushed in the course of the menstrual cycle. In in vitro fertilization, about 75 percent of the blastocysts either fail to implant or are lost through spontaneous abortions. quote: What is a "fertilized fetus"? Can we please stick to using the proper medical terms for the stages of reproduction? The oocyte is a fertilized egg. Then it becomes a zygote, then a blastocyst, then an embryo, then a fetus.
quote: That's just it, though. If the egg doesn't implant, they aren't pregnant, are they? And I want to be cc'd when you send your Senator or local church group your plan to collect the menstrual fluid of billions of women and search it for fertilized eggs.
quote: 1) Does another person have the right to disfigure you? Do they have the right to demand that you feed it? Give you a life threatening medical condition? Does someone have a right to force you to endure hours of intense pain and exhausting physical effort? Does someone have the right to demand that you pay thousands of dollars for them to exist? Does someone have the right to demand that you curtail your normal activities just because they want to be with you 24 hours a day? 1) It's not a baby.
quote: Right. Therefore, something without a will of it's own shouldn't be given full human rights.
quote: Not in the case of rape. Or incest. But it doesn't matter. You need to explain to me how something that has no will, no thoughts, no consciousness, and no self should be given nearly complete power over the body of a person who DOES have all of those things.
quote: But the uterus that the egg implants into IS a part of her body. Are you saying that she stops owning her uterus at some point?
quote: Of course she can elect to have a hysterectomy for any reason. Some women do. Why do you think she can't? How bizzare.
quote: Women die from complications of pregnancy and delivery at a rate over ten times greater than that of abortion. And that's just in the US. The number one cause of death for women worldwide is pregnancy complications. It is a big deal, physically and emotionally, to be pregnant and to give birth. One's body goes throuh a LOT. Most woman suffer some permenent disfigurement.
quote: Women die from complications of pregnancy and delivery at a rate over ten times greater than that of abortion.
quote: Oh, brother, not another one. Look, the women who have had abortions who do not feel ashamed or sorry who also know you are anti-abortion are probably not going to tell you. Even if they don't know you are anti-abortion, it's just not something most of them would feel the need to constantly talk about, unlike the people who regret their descision. I know several women who have had abortions that they do not regret. They are happily married and mothers of several children each. Feel free to use your biased anecdotal evidence if you wish. I'll stick with properly conducted, long-term studies which folowed a representative (random) sample of women for two years and found no evidence of lasting emotional harm from abortion.
quote: No. You are the person demanding that every pregnancy be carried to term, so you must be prepared to provide for the women and girls you demand this of.
quote: This isn't a valid analogy. I'm not suggesting that anyone have an abortion or carry a pregnancy to term on the basis of my personal moral position. I am suggesting that people be permitted to make whatever informed medical and moral choice they wish to.
So, a woman is just a walking uterus to you, then, and only the death of that uterus should allow any consideration to the woman or girl at all. quote: Your only consideration is the life of the woman. You don't care if she is healthy, you don't care if she is happy, miserable or mentally unstable, you don't care if her life is completely upended, you don't care if her body is disfigured or if she risks her life in other ways. All you care about is if her uterus can house the fetus. That means that, to you, she is nothing more than a uterus-support system. She is nothing more than a walking uterus.
The fetus's human rights trump the woman's every single time. quote: See my list of questions above.
quote: The fetus can't think, can't reason, has no consciousness. It isn't a person, so it does not have the same rights as someone who does.
quote: Well, then. Since the fetus gets all of it's nutrients from the blood it shares with the woman's, then you must support a woman's right to not donate her blood nutrients to the fetus. More than one woman and girl has starved herself to induce abortion.
quote: That's a good question. If it has been clearly communicated that he doesn't ever want children, and she gave him every indication that she felt exactly the same way, but once pregnant she decides she wants to keep it, I do not think that the man should be required to pay to support the resulting child.
quote: Have you ever bothered to learn why these procedures are done, and how often?
quote: You knew what I meant. I am much more than this:
quote: Self-awareness. Being aware that one is an entity. How can you tell they are aware of themselves? Are they thinking? When do they start doing these things?
My husband is a person. A several week old fetus is not aware of anything, has no consciousness. They are not comparable. quote: Nope. Not a person. But closer.
I know you right wingers don't like ambiguity, but there it is. quote: There is no exact moment when a zygote or a fetus becomes a "fully-fledged" person except, for sure, at birth. Before that, it is a sliding scale. It is ambiguous, and that makes people who like easy, black and white moral choices uncomfortable. It is difficult to grapple with ambiguity and shades of gray, but that is the reality of the abortion debate. There are no easy answers, reagardless of your radical, extreme views.
quote: Yes, in age-appropriate ways. Have you forgotten that 6 year old children play "doctor"? they are curious about bodies in general, so why not teach them very basic differences between boys and girls, and that sexuality is part of life and not to be ashamed of? Also, have you forgotten that children that age and younger are not immune from sexual molestestation? Wouldn't it be good to teach them proper words for things and what is appropriate kinds of touching, etc?
quote: I wouldn't expect her to. Remember, I said age-appropriate.
quote: That's why you might not give that much detail at that point. But I'll bet she knows all of her body parts, right? Does she know the correct words for her genitals?
quote: Why? Isn't sexual health a part of general health? It's only your idea that sex is dirty or shameful that makes you consider it such a taboo. It is a long-established fact that the abortion and STD rates are very low in Western countries which have early and comprehensive national sex education and easy access to contraception and safer sex protections, like condoms. The more you write, the more you give the impression that you are more concerned with keeping kids ignorant of sexual health facts than in preventing unwanted pregnancy and abortion in the misguided hope that if they are ignorant of those facts, they will not have sex at all. Well, hon, let me tell you, they have sex no matter if they know how to prevent unwanted pregnancy or STD's or not.
quote: Found this study:
Context: Adolescent pregnancy, birth, abortion and sexually transmitted disease (STD) rates are much higher in the United States than in most other developed countries. Adolescent childbearing is more common in the United States (22% of women reported having had a child before age 20) than in Great Britain (15%), Canada (11%), France (6%) and Sweden (4%); differences are even greater for births to younger teenagers. A lower proportion of teenage pregnancies are resolved through abortion in the United States than in the other countries; however, because of their high pregnancy rate, U.S. teenagers have the highest abortion rate. The age of sexual debut varies little across countries, yet American teenagers are the most likely to have multiple partners. A greater proportion of U.S. women reported no contraceptive use at either first or recent intercourse (25% and 20%, respectively) than reported nonuse in France (11% and 12%, respectively), Great Britain (21% and 4%, respectively) and Sweden (22% and 7%, respectively). So, what about Sweden? And, dude, I don't think that sex ed makes kids any more interested in sex than they already are. In fact, making it "forbidden and taboo" makes it even more attractive. The minute anything becomes mundane and unlikely to shock the adults, it loses it's rebellious attraction.
quote: OK, I'll look. Please provide the stats.
And you do know that abstinence-only programs don't work, and actually lead to teens being more likely to engage in anal and oral sex, don't you? quote: Er, ever since the federal money earmarked for such programs became available five years ago or so, every state in the country except for California has participated. The conclusion of a study of several of the programs?
Abstinence-only programs show little evidence of sustained (long-term) impact on attitudes and intentions. Worse, they show some negative impacts on youth's willingness to use contraception, including condoms, to prevent negative sexual health outcomes related to sexual intercourse. Importantly, only in one state did any program demonstrate short-term success in delaying the initiation of sex; none of these programs demonstrates evidence of long-term success in delaying sexual initiation among youth exposed to the programs or any evidence of success in reducing other sexual risk-taking behaviors among participants. They do delay teens choosing to have intercourse by about a year, but they do not prevent it. Also, those teens are less likely to use contraception or take safer sex precautions because they don't have the knowledge or the tools to do so. quote: Medical News Today Although teenagers who take "virginity pledges" begin engaging in vaginal intercourse later than teens who have not committed to remain abstinent until marriage, they also are more likely to engage in oral or anal sex than nonpledging virgin teens and less likely to use condoms once they become sexually active, according to a study published in the April issue of the... Journal of Adolescent Health, It's amazing that you don't know any of this stuff. And you claim to care about preventing unwanted pregnancy and abortion. Could've fooled me.
quote: We DO have HIV, plus a whole lot of other STD's, and unwanted pregnancy to make people get serious about it. Keeping someone ignorant of ways to mitigate undesireable and unintended consequences of an action they are very, very likely to engage in is never, ever a good way to keep them from engaging in it. If a kid wants to have sex, not knowing how to protect themselves from contracting a disease, or not knowing how to effectively prevent an unwanted pregnancy is not going to stop them. Ignorance will not stop them. The cold, hard, reality of the statistics shows us this. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given. "Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!" - Ned Flanders "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Holmes, I feel a little bit of an obligation to tell you that I do not read your posts to me anymore.
It's not because I am "afraid" of taking on the points you raise. Indeed, in the past I have judged some of your arguments as very good points that are worthy of being addressed. However, I do not read your posts to me anymore so I am not tempted to respond. This is for the sole reason that I know that it is highly, highly likely that I will unsuccessfuly spend a great deal of the debate trying to correct your misrepresentation and distortion of my position. This is too bad, but there it is. It's just not worth the frustration of being misrepresented over and over again and for the correction to be ignored just as often. It's boring. Anyway, just thought you'd want to know. "Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!" - Ned Flanders "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
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nator Member (Idle past 2201 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Looking several steps ahead? That's what you think you are doing when you willfully misrepresent my current stated position? LOL! What a beautiful contortion!
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