Against the LAW?

I can tell you as a woman that beauty contests, to me, are not merely a "bit of fun", and never have been.My culture taught me that to be a beauty pageant contestant (or just look like one) was to meet some kind of feminine ideal. And very nearly all feminine ideals had to do with outward appearance.It also was not lost on me, even at a young age, that similar contests did not exist for men.As unfair as I thought that was, it was still reality. I surmised, quite correctly, that what females looked like was quite important; more important than many other factors that make up a person. In addition, it was confirmed to me through these pageants and through cultural messages from many sources in day to day life that women are expected to be "on display" all of the time.I now find them silly in a sort of sad way and the women in them incredibly fake- and plastic-looking and sounding. (which, for the Miss America pageant, they can be fake and plastic since they lifted the ban on plastic surgery and fake breasts)

Certainly since 1948. Several Mr. Universe Pagents

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

quote:

---

It also was not lost on me, even at a young age, that similar contests did not exist for men.

---

Blech. They did when I was young. They were called sports. They had a similar purpose; to waste lots of time training to perform essentially useless activities in order to reach the masculine ideal: to be able to crush one's opponents.

---

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

Yes, an equally lame superficial representation of "manhood" eh?Certainly nobody that buys into superficial image would get selected for any kind of important position...like Gov of California ......or Minnesota ......(how many football athletes, movie stars?)makes one cringe: what is the selection process eh?

---

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

​

RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

The adolescent male behavior pattern to attract attention.What is the process that we use to select leaders?It certainly is NOT intelligence eh?

---

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

​

RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

half the reason I can't get a girlfriend. I don't do sports (unless you count rock-climbing, but I don't do it nearly enough--and I plan on being an old climber, not a bold climber). I do play chess. Hmmm. I wonder--oh, I know. Let me run into some guys, hit them real hard, and then I can get a girl! yay!I wonder what law I'll break next? (hopefully not the suspension laws)

---

Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

i am SO sorry, but its time for a rant! What is with all of the fatalistic cynicism?! There is nothing wrong with beauty pagents as there is nothing wrong with sports as there is something obviously flawed with US Government! Why is it bad that women compare themselves to find the one that has the most agreed-upon beauty? This is NOT a bad thing, noone is harmed (just the opposite), and even if shallowly, the pagents are supposed to be about more then looks. There is such thing as inner beauty, and so far we (this thread) seem to only be looking at plastic and swimsuits.#2- sports. There is ALSO nothing wrong with sports OR being competetive! That Young males are taught to cruch other young males is a means to win, and children and adults play sports for the joy and fufillment of being on a team, not for the scent of death. I am perfectly qualified to make this assertion, having played soccer since i can walk, and having been the captian and player of a varsity soccer team for four years; withstanding everything from championships games to 0-22 seasons. Those were some of the best memories i have ever experianced, dont you dare dilute it to the point where you claim athletes are taught to destroy their opponents.#3 on the other end of the spectrum, what is this stereotypical cynical crap kuresu? i also play chess, and have won the State bughouse/siamese tournament twice with my good friend marvin trotter. Id rather not list my uscf rating here though . The same competetiveness that you so condemn in sports is the driving force in chess, yet you say it is terrible.
The long-winded point being, what does this have ANYTHING to do with a girlfriend or being masculine? I have a girlfriend, we've been dating since out of high school, and we will soon marry. You [all] tell me that i conform to society, you tell me that i play soccer with my old friends every weekend for the thrill of victory, you tell me im defending the self-destruction of our society, and im afraid i might have to push you off a cliff. Lets hope kuresu can catch you.The rant ends right about now. consider this the summary. There is simple and pure joy in simple and uncomplex things such as sports or pagents. Dont defile them. Dont yourselves become shallow in rushing to call them shallow.P.S. The line about the Government being flawed pertains to a comment up above by RAZD where he said that the politicians were elected because they embodied all of the negative things that our society glorifies. This is true and yet not. They are not chosen for these things, they are chosen because they know how to play the system; to appear as good politicians and present a face that the public would love. Im not quite sure who said it (Tom Clancy?) but it was said that the best politician was one who did not want the job.Edited by Damouse, : No reason given.Edited by Damouse, : SP

---

-I believe in God, I just call it Nature
-One man with an imaginary friend is insane. a Million men with an imaginary friend is a religion.
-People must often be reminded that the bible did not arrive as a fax from heaven; it was written by men.
-Religion is the opiate of the masses

Hmmm, my rather frivolous ribbing has gone a bit serious. I totally got that you weren't telling them to pull out. That's part of where your position was 180 from Sulaiman's. However you really were critical of them, though perhaps you do not recognize it. Go back and look at the negative terms you used to describe such pageants as well as what characteristics they are choosing to be judged on. If I used those to describe something you were proud of or expressed interest in, my guess is you'd feel you were being criticized.That said, I'm not arguing that you shouldn't have that opinion. I'm not even saying you shouldn't express that opinion. I was only trying to joke because you were picking on a guy for picking on something that you yourself went on to pick on. Huh? She'll enjoy it. Does she have to do more than that? Oh and by the way there are male contests as well.But back to your questions. I don't know exactly how many have amounted to "much". What is "much"? My guess is you don't either, since there are so many different contests and as you say you don't really watch them.How many stand out in memory? Well Vanessa Williams did, though she had her title revoked. In any case, ask most people how many winners of the Nobel Prize stand out in their memory, or how about the Fields Medal? How about Chess? How about any intellectual skill based contest? My guess is the nature of contest winners standing out in a person's mind will be based on what their interest is. Hm. The latest person shaping the world has absolutely no ability to communicate with anyone and I'd prefer just about any pageant winner in place of him. Shaping the world is not necessarily a positive quality, and neither did I claim that this was some ability pageant contestants had per se.All I said is that Islamic women who step outside the confines of fundamentalist dress and behavioral codes to join in such contests are able to effect change in their community. I think it's sort of insulting to them to claim that they are benefiting from some sort of ongoing change in their community, when your OP addresses leaders that are haranguing them for stepping out of bounds, and they themselves discuss the historic role they are playing by doing so. They are presenting a challenge to the likes of Sulaiman. When they win they may bring people with them.Its like saying blacks in the south that defied segregational conventions of the south weren't helping change those conventions by doing so, they were simply benefiting from ongoing trends in society.These women are defying social conventions within their community and so making a change within them.

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Do you know how many women can say the opposite? What difference does your gender make in saying you don't like them? Don't blame your culture, unless it is some subculture. For as long as humans have been on this planet, esthetics of beauty have been of interest. Human, animal, geological, architectural.And if there is anything to be learned from history it is that there is no such thing as an ideal. Tastes change and so criteria for selecting best representatives of beauty.I was raised, so I guess that means my culture, told me beauty contests were a fun thing to watch because you got to see a bunch of relatively attractive ladies. Of that batch, a person would be selected as top contestant, not crowned the best woman in the world all others being inferior. Neither was I instructed that that was all I had to look at in another human being.Don't let the title of any contest fool you, it is about a specific range of contestants measured by a specific panel on a singular characteristic, not all women by everyone on all they are worth measuring. I mean its not like you believe American Idol actually chooses the most talented people that all of America idolizes, on the only criteria they should be idolized, right? Your idea that there were no similar contests for men was not reality. It wasn't then and it isn't today. There are more numerous contests for women than men, but that's about all. Maybe that's because there is more interest for such contests, both from men and women.
No offense but you were living with a skewed vision of history and culture.As it is you do know there are more than just the beauty contests with the highest press? Not all depend on plastic looks and sounds.And there are plenty of other contests anyway. Don't they combine to show all the different aspects humans can prize? Were you not aware of any other contests in which women could take part and win? If so, why did beauty pageants make a difference? If not, I'm still not sure why it should make a difference. Its not like the winner was the only woman men wanted to marry or work with.I mean if I grew up in an area where the only contests were hogcalling and cowchip tossing, should I have been offended or felt that meant that's the only worth in people?Humans are inately drawn to beauty, and that includes other humans. I don't see where celebrating beauty and generating the excitement which comes from that facet of a person's overall characteristics is a negative thing. I don't see where such contests argue that there are no other criteria one can measure or find interesting about another person.I understand that you personally might not like it, but why can't it be just a bit of fun?Edited by holmes, : redux

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

damn dude cool it.I don't have a problem with competiveness. Never said I did. In fact, I happen to hate losing. I was in the marching band (a sport, btw for you who don't think it is--check out DCI). I rock climb. I play chess.I was just having a bit of fun with my comment too. (besides, just how many girls wanna go out with a geek? yeah, I'm stereotyping here, but there aren't that many)Anywho, I think you're missing the bigger picture of what these pageansts represent to society. To us who grow up, women see the pageants (for example) and the societal pressure to be a barbie doll is on. For men, it's when we see that the QB's get all the fame, and now the societal pressure is one for us to be super-men. It's not just for fun and games--it's a race to the top to conform to societal pressures, and we all do it. Some of us just happen to see that as bad.anywho, chill.

---

Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

lol excuse my counter cynicism. Its fun to shoot off the handel sometimes.As to the Super-Men comment, its true, but only to a certain level. QB's are expected to be the best, and most parents and children want to have their children be/be the best. Its only logical, and theres nothing wrong with wanted to be the best. I would definatly say that there is enough tolerance in society in that those who do not fit the stereotype of the Football player, for example, will not be asked to become a QB. There is so much spontaneity and such a varied spectrum of personalities and outlooks that our society revolves around that noone looks twice when one says that they are a rebel. If anything that is the norml i would disagree that pressure is overly applied to make SuperMen. The american motto: You're unique- just like everybody else.

---

-I believe in God, I just call it Nature
-One man with an imaginary friend is insane. a Million men with an imaginary friend is a religion.
-People must often be reminded that the bible did not arrive as a fax from heaven; it was written by men.
-Religion is the opiate of the masses

LOL -- be careful what you wish for eh?perhaps the next one will be the motherin one.

---

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

​

RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This shows that no people are hurt by the programs? Do we need to discuss anorexia and bulimia disorders? Being enjoyed for who you are is fun.

---

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

​

RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

Maybe it's about time that Homo sapiens started some system for chosing people to shape the world in a positive manner.

---

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

​

RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

Yes, the fact that people enjoy pageants, both in watching and participating show that people are not inherently hurt by such programs.People who are not in pageants and do not watch them suffer such disorders. Those within them that do suffer such disorders are not forced to do so by those contests.Your argument is like blaming sports for injuries related to poor practice and steroid use. It is like blaming education for cheating and suicides. Believe it or not you are a physical being too. You may very well have qualities that generate esthetic feelings of pleasure. There are people who find it fun to be enjoyed based on those aspects of themselves.Also, not everyone is capable of being a genius and speak several languages. If a person lacks such qualities that others can prize, are they truly lesser? Do they not deserve the ability to have fun based on qualities others might enjoy?Truly, you are arguing from a position of body negative assumptions, prizing the immaterial aspects of a person higher than their organic aspects. This is arbitrary and I would argue based largely on Abrahamic concepts/illusions regarding mind/body.

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)