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Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Against the LAW? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3628 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
NJ: Aren't female sports, such as women's golf, volleyball, and basketball the counterpart to male athletics? I was only addressing the display aspect of such events, particularly in the social lives of young adults. My suggestion was not reductionist; I don't say display is the only thing on the agenda. That's why I fogged the analogy a bit with the word 'rather.' The analogy between men's sports and women's pageants isn't linear because many other aspects exist to any public event. As athletics, women's golf is the true counterpart of men's golf and so on, as you say. But as display events an analogy can legitimately be made. It has already been mentioned here that pageants as well as sports exist for both men and women. Traditionally, though, what gets more TV time and revenue when the subject is men--sports or pageants? What gets more TV time and revenue when the subject is women--sports or pageants? It's as I said: men tend to be evaluated more by their accomplishments, women more by their physical beauty. Research suggests this situation reflects reproductive priorities of truly ancient origin.
Something tells me that most men don't watch Moday Night Football for the ritualistic sexual displays. I think you are reading into it too deeply with Darwinian glasses. Or maybe you read into my comments to deeply with anti-Darwinian glasses. When you watch that pro football game: what sex are the players? What sex are all the cheerleaders? 100% on each side, is it? That's beating the odds for a random population sampling, wouldn't you say? Can you be sure no sexual display is involved? Not even ritually? Not even as a vestige from the college game? None? In my part of the world school athletics are intramural. The most popular sport is basketball. At the best attended games, men play and women watch. The women also organize these events. The sexual display component is not hard to see. I don't suggest it is the only thing going on (everyone here loves the game on its own merits) or suggesting there is anything wrong with displays in the first place. It's just there. It would be silly to deny it. Athletic events are not unique in this regard. Sexual display occurs as part of any human activity. People do what they do. The question is more one about conformity--the thinking kind versus the unthinking kind. We have to deal, as Schraf notes, with the omnipresent commercial exploitation of sex. Advertisers know everyone takes an interest in the subject and they count on that. Saturation levels get reached. And we can certainly question the images they choose for the bombardment. __ Edited by Archer Opterix, : Ongoing quest for literary perfection. Archer All species are transitional.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3628 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Ever heard the song 'When I Was A Boy' by Dar Williams? Don't know that one, Schraf. And I've heard Dar Williams live. Clever songwriter! I like 'The Christians and The Pagans'
quote:__ Edited by Archer Opterix, : Format. Edited by Archer Opterix, : Added lyrics. Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo repair. Archer All species are transitional.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
I've seen Dar live several times. She's a long -time favorite singer-songwriter of mine.
Love The Chritians and the Pagans. Did you know that she wrote that in a day? When I Was A Boy:
I won't forget when Peter Pan came to my house, took my hand I said I was a boy; I'm glad he didn't check. I learned to fly, I learned to fight I lived a whole life in one night We saved each other's lives out on the pirate's deck. And I remember that nightWhen I'm leaving a late night with some friends And I hear somebody tell me it's not safe, someone should help me I need to find a nice man to walk me home. When I was a boy, I scared the pants off of my mom,Climbed what I could climb upon And I don't know how I survived, I guess I knew the tricks that all boys knew. And you can walk me home, but I was a boy, too. I was a kid that you would like, just a small boy on her bikeRiding topless, yeah, I never cared who saw. My neighbor come outside to say, "Get your shirt," I said "No way, it's the last time I'm not breaking any law." And now I'm in this clothing store, and the signs say less is moreMore that's tight means more to see, more for them, not more for me That can't help me climb a tree in ten seconds flat When I was a boy, See that picture? That was meGrass-stained shirt and dusty knees And I know things have gotta change, They got pills to sell, they've got implants to put in, they've got implants to remove But I am not forgetting...that I was a boy too And like the woods where I would creep, it's a secret I can keepExcept when I'm tired, 'cept when I'm being caught off guard And I've had a lonesome awful day, the conversation finds its way To catching fire-flies out in the backyard. And I so tell the man I'm with about the other life I livedAnd I say now you're top gun, I have lost and you have won And he says, "Oh no, no, can't you see When I was a girl, my mom and I we always talkedAnd I picked flowers everywhere that I walked. And I could always cry, now even when I'm alone I seldom do And I have lost some kindness But I was a girl too. And you were just like me, and I was just like you I can relate so strongly to these lyrics. It makes me both happy to know that others have had the same experience and sad to know that society crushes everyone and that it's so very difficult to escape it's weight. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I am in agreement with everything you say except for the bit where you say it's irrational for people to believe in what constitutes socially acceptable standards of being good looking. I think that many people with poor body image, sometimes including those with eating disorders, quite rationally understand what society deems accpetable. It's perfectly rational to come to some of the conclusions that we do, even if some of the measures taken to acheive that appearence are irrational.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... except for the bit where you say it's irrational ... It's irrational when it is becomes the source of behavior not beneficial to the person. It's the extent that it is taken to that is irrational. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Hmm, I see what you are saying, but I think we should define "beneficial" here.
I mean, it is certainly beneficial for Terri Hatcher to eat mostly fruit and jog a lot as it makes her much more marketable as an actress. It is beneficial for Anna Nicole Smith to take Trim Spa (and probably a bunch of amphetamines) to lose a whole bunch of weight because she was considered beautiful again and got media attention and public approval for it. I am by no means obsese, nor unhealthy, but I do have a little extra weight. My doctor never said a single thing to me about it. When I lost some of it I got a whole bunch of positive feedback from people at work telling me how good I looked. I even had a relative stranger who was a regular customer take me aside and seriously tell me that I looked like a woman who was really coming in to her own, that I had a great energy about me and that she thought it was great. I was touched and gratified. That was beneficial to me certainly, wasn't it? Now I've gained some of the weight back and am working to get rid of it again. I think and worry about my weight far more than I'd like to, which might be thought of as not beneficial but that's where I find myself. Who wouldn't like to have all of that positive attention? Who wouldn't like to go into a store and be able to put on anything and look good in it? Who wouldn't like to be able to walk among the 18-21 year olds that are always part of a college campus (whom, since my husband is an academic, I will always live among) and not feel dowdy and fat? I know that this sounds hopelessly pathetic and vain, but it is simply true. I fight these pressures well most of the time, but sometimes I am weak. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
I was only addressing the display aspect of such events, particularly in the social lives of young adults. My suggestion was not reductionist; I don't say display is the only thing on the agenda. That's why I fogged the analogy a bit with the word 'rather.' If you were trying to elucidate that there are definite differneces between the sexes then I certainly agree. Some people are bent on consolidating males and females, turning them into androgenous creatures that nature/God would never concievably select for obvious reasons.
Traditionally, though, what gets more TV time and revenue when the subject is men--sports or pageants? What gets more TV time and revenue when the subject is women--sports or pageants? Oh, I totally missed understood your rationale. My apologies. I thought you were suggesting that football's primary concern is to attract females. Though an exhibition of male strength is obviously a desirable attribute to the opposite sex I highly doubt that the inventers of football were thinking about how it would attract the chicks in the crowd. But then again, one has to wonder if cheerleading's primary draw isn't almost nearly for exhibition purposes. I mean, lets get real. Nobody gets "pepped up" by watching scantily-clad girls jumping aroung, rather, they'd be more inclined to be the flutter of sexual arousal-- which, no doubt, the cheerleader is hoping for.
It's as I said: men tend to be evaluated more by their accomplishments, women more by their physical beauty. Research suggests this situation reflects reproductive priorities of truly ancient origin. Its also been said that 'a man's strength is his charm, and a women's charm is her strength.' I think both adages are applicable and true for the most part.
quote: Or maybe you read into my comments to deeply with anti-Darwinian glasses. Duly noted on this occasion........
Can you be sure no sexual display is involved? Not even ritually? Not even as a vestige from the college game? None? Sure, in some cases. But I doubt the players motivation as he's rushing in for the touchdown is whether or not his ass looks good in his uniform. On the other hand, as I stated early, for the cheerleader it almost certianly is for her the question of whether or not her ass looks good hers.
In my part of the world school athletics are intramural. Speaking of which, did you move to Taiwan or have you always lived there? I only ask because your English is is excellent considering Mandarin (correct me if I'm wrong) is the dominant language.
The most popular sport is basketball. I would have never have guessed that.
At the best attended games, men play and women watch. The women also organize these events. The sexual display component is not hard to see. I don't suggest it is the only thing going on (everyone here loves the game on its own merits) or suggesting there is anything wrong with displays in the first place. It's just there. It would be silly to deny it. Again, I would agree. I thought you were suggesting that the primary invention of sports was to attract mates. While it certainly might enhance ones appeal, I wouldn't place that much stock in it.
The question is more one about conformity--the thinking kind versus the unthinking kind. We have to deal, as Schraf notes, with the omnipresent commercial exploitation of sex. Advertisers know everyone takes an interest in the subject and they count on that. Saturation levels get reached. And we can certainly question the images they choose for the bombardment. Yeah, talk to Damouse about that. I think he lives in the middle of Greenland because he claims that nobody "really" cares about looks. Yeah, right... "There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Who wants to do this?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: ...which, if she successfuly produces such flutterings in her audience, she is likely to continue to get paid. It's a myth that all those women who provide sexual-type entertainment for men do it because they really love to turn on men. Some of them do, of course, but not all.
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EZscience Member (Idle past 5185 days) Posts: 961 From: A wheatfield in Kansas Joined: |
quote: Unfortunately, that's the jist of Joan Roughgarten's criticisms of Sexual Selection theory that I personally think are competely wrong. We touched on this in the thread on Sexual Selection.Her basic premise is that sex roles are societally determined independent of biological gender. Here is a link to an article on her(/him), and my thoughts on the subject here.
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Damouse Member (Idle past 4936 days) Posts: 215 From: Brookfield, Wisconsin Joined: |
Attractive people make more money: Aright the first source is the only one that is almost unarguable, however it lists a differance of only 5% in paychecks between what is considered beautiful versus distasteful. The Article says it with an air of surprise such that it seems they are just as affronted. I would argue that a small differance of 5% is subject to calculable error from the study; they factored out schooling and other such factors, but it could not have been perfect. Along with that, the study did NOT take into account the amount or the quality of work each of the tested do, and i believe thats very relavant.
Attractive people get better medical treatment: I dont mean to sound rude, but the study's displayed name is misleading. When it says "Attractiveness" its talking from an economic standpoint. True, physical charecteristics come into play at the end, but even then it is said that the facial aspect is directly linked to the economic value and stability. The end bit where it says:quote:means something different then what you responded. Beauty is not determined by vocal quality, i can assume you agree? So another hit under the "Dont judge a book by its cover" point. I.e. they can be as beautiful as gods, but when they open their eyes to one that would care of their physical aspect, they are lowered. Attractive people and Trust: Your third source begins: quote:What does this mean...? Ahh yes. Beauty inspires our first impression, and the "Timeworn adages" warn us against this. But the article also says that when they dont live up to our trust, which the article insinuates that the subjects tested never did- quote:-then the system is realized to be a zero sum gain. After this exchange, where do the Beauties stand? They will not be trusted again, only for their trustee's hopes to be dashed. Instead, they make a decision based on their other charecteristics (of which they no nothing) and therefor start again at 0 with the persons beauty factored out. How long does a first impression last? Not very long at all. Attractive Professors: Again, the differance is marginal (being only a differance of a percent) I read this paragraph and laughed. quote:Funny, because thats what im saying.... From your responses i take it you do not agree with her, and are sick of the system. Listening to Nemesis, he seems to say the same thing. Is there anyone here who can say that they look at peoples looks to determine their value? Is there anyone you can catch saying that? Assuming no, is the results of the studies assuming the cause is selfconscious? The point im making is that if people do do this, it is all selfconscious and not many want to be biased. People in general say the same things we're saying about its worth. quote: As for the last one, can you please give the oringinal Kurtzberg experiment? i tried to goole it and found nothing. Oh, and im really sorry for the personal insult. Im not quite sure where that came from, im very sorry. Edited by Damouse, : No reason given. -I believe in God, I just call it Nature -One man with an imaginary friend is insane. a Million men with an imaginary friend is a religion. -People must often be reminded that the bible did not arrive as a fax from heaven; it was written by men. -Religion is the opiate of the masses
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Damouse Member (Idle past 4936 days) Posts: 215 From: Brookfield, Wisconsin Joined: |
quote:Yes i know. Same deal as before: completly unfounded, irrational, and illogical statement. Sorry. quote:I do believe you misunderstood me here. Let me make myself clear: In any school you are GRADED and PUNISHED by how you act, not how you look. quote:I understand that people have a tendency to shove their heads up north every once in a while, but i still find it hard to believe that in our country people are treated as such. For menial labor, where the mental capacity does not matter it may indeed have an effect. But for anything of rank where the employee is earning above minimum wage, i dont think that any sane unbiased person would chose someone with a lower capacity and greater beauty. over the better worker. [quote]Well, parental love supersedes looks. But it isn't uncommon that a parent would secretly view their healthy child with a higher praise than their deformed child. Again, I'm not saying that its right, I'm just saying that it happens.[quote] I have to disagree. I think that parental love superceeds all, not just to the point where you can live with the child.
quote:Noble thing to say in the face of the argument, lets see if you stick with it. -FDR: diagnosed with polio before he became governor of NY and was even considered for the presidancy. FDR was arguably the most popular president ever, beign the only one to serve four consecutive terms (or 3 and a bit). He walked around on cruches for his whole life; sometimes used a wheelchair; and had to have cast iron podiums so that he could give his speeches. -Stephen Hawking. Need i say more to qualify for your description of eminent desfigured professor? File:Stephen Hawking 050506.jpg - Wikipedia Theres a pic for you. Definatly not much to look at physically, but a brilliant man and definatly "eminent" Couldnt find any disfigured CEO's on the first page of a google, but ill look more. -I believe in God, I just call it Nature -One man with an imaginary friend is insane. a Million men with an imaginary friend is a religion. -People must often be reminded that the bible did not arrive as a fax from heaven; it was written by men. -Religion is the opiate of the masses
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Damouse Member (Idle past 4936 days) Posts: 215 From: Brookfield, Wisconsin Joined: |
quote: Oh thats cold....Watch what you say about my greenlandity. I know people who know some people who KNEW some people, if you get what im saying. Greenland mafia gonna show at your door one night.... So im an idealist. So sue me.
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Damouse Member (Idle past 4936 days) Posts: 215 From: Brookfield, Wisconsin Joined: |
quote: These two quotes go together. I have a little cousin, and he cannot wait to spew about the social structure of his school and social life if provoked. I myself still remember the days where my student body was seperated by fashion schisms. There are people who dress "Punk." There are people who dress "Jock." Theres "Prep" theres "Goth." Theres all sorts of other silly little ways of dressing that all mean something. Mind you, i went to a private school with a dress code. The quote from the top:quote:Means that the labels that are applied to these groups are not conformal: the groups do not tailor themselves to fit a name. Instead the groups tailor a name to fit their own style. I would definatly say that those who "create" their own style and outfit are regarded higher then those who conform to a fashion. Lol check out this site.http://www.stuckatprom.com/contests/prom/ Google duct tape dress and go to images. In fact, just google all of the clique names from above, +fashion. Yeah, i have to say uniquenss is accented. Edited by Damouse, : No reason given.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Yes i know. Same deal as before: completly unfounded, irrational, and illogical statement. Sorry. No worries. I just find it odd that you don't think vanity plays a big factor in the way society views people.
I do believe you misunderstood me here. Let me make myself clear: In any school you are GRADED and PUNISHED by how you act, not how you look. You were speaking about the faculty then and not the student body..? If so, yes, I misunderstood you.
I understand that people have a tendency to shove their heads up north every once in a while, but i still find it hard to believe that in our country people are treated as such. For menial labor, where the mental capacity does not matter it may indeed have an effect. But for anything of rank where the employee is earning above minimum wage, i dont think that any sane unbiased person would chose someone with a lower capacity and greater beauty. over the better worker. That's funny, I see it the exact opposite. If you are doing menial jobs, no employer is going to care what they look like so long as they shovel shtuff around. But on the flipside of that coin, no one is going to hire an obese, pockmarked, and frumpy people as CEO's unless they have some trul fabulous credentials. I mean, of course, some people aren't that shallow and look at the credentials. But I would say that on average, whether they conscious of it or not, there is a perception that unkempt and obese people are fat and lazy. Some employers might make that connection and some might not. Think of why people make sure they are looking their best for interviews... Its because it really does present a variable.
I have to disagree. I think that parental love superceeds all, not just to the point where you can live with the child. I agreed that parental love supersedes all. But its happened that in families that have multiple children, it might be common that some parents play favorites, based on looks, or intelligence, or a number of reasons.
Noble thing to say in the face of the argument, lets see if you stick with it. -FDR: diagnosed with polio before he became governor of NY and was even considered for the presidancy. FDR was arguably the most popular president ever, beign the only one to serve four consecutive terms (or 3 and a bit). He walked around on cruches for his whole life; sometimes used a wheelchair; and had to have cast iron podiums so that he could give his speeches. -Stephen Hawking. Need i say more to qualify for your description of eminent desfigured professor? File:Stephen Hawking 050506.jpg - Wikipedia Theres a pic for you. Definatly not much to look at physically, but a brilliant man and definatly "eminent" Couldnt find any disfigured CEO's on the first page of a google, but ill look more. FDR hardly qualifies as 'disfigured,' but I would certainly lend him credit for overcoming his adversity and I offer you credit for thinking of him. As far as Stephen Hawking is concerned, he was writting books before his disease was full blown. But, again, you have to give that man alot of credit for lecturing as much as he does because he has limited mobility. "There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt
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