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Author | Topic: Free will in Heaven | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I dont believe that humanity has to fear the prospect of free will when in Heaven. By definition, any rational creature who was in the presence and communion with the Creator would be irrational to not freely choose to be with that Creator and indeed to surrender the need to change anything.
Satan freely chose to become Satan. God never created Satan, remember. God created a freewilled Lucifer who chose to become Satan. Prehaps the implication of freewill in Heaven means that the final choice of our allegiances is yet to be determined (or decided). Satans choice showed irrational behavior. Perhaps once we are allowed to see and experience what Heaven is like, we will have the option of choice at that point.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: To paraphrase, "You can have Heaven in any emotion/color/flavor/preference that pleases you--as long as you are pleased by God." In other words, by definition should we not have to agree that God is the ultimate security...the ultimate parent...the ultimate source of stability...before we could be happy in Heaven? My dad used to cite Henry Ford: "You can have the Model T in any color you want - as long as you want black". Not my idea of "heaven". Its not as if Heaven is a democracy, after all. Its also not a Theocracy in the sense that humans have grown used to defining theocracies...but I would conclude that any free will that we had going in to Heaven would be laid at the feet of the Master. What use would there be to reserve the right to disagree with the source omniscient? Any free will that we had in Heaven would of course have to be given to us by God. (or allowed to be kept) Edited by Phat, : add by edit
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
vacate writes: When God created man he allowed for free will. I understand the idea behind this being God did not want “robots” that simply worship, but humans who worship because they choose to do so. It just occurred to me that many peoples idea of Heaven equates to our idea of what a good parent would do with adult children.(After all...don't we have to become like a child... to enter into Heaven?) Within the context of our idea of God, some of us may think that God wants us to deposit our brains in a jar by the door and allow Him to be our pilot. (Is God my co-pilot or am I His co-pilot? ) Others may see God as a proud cosmic parent who rejoices in a creation that has learned to think and grow and discover. The latter beliefs would welcome a free will in Heaven, as God sends His kids out into the universe for further adventures. The former beliefs would shun a free will in Heaven as disobedient and rebellious towards an obviously superior intellect and leader. Our perspectives on Heaven are framed by our ideas about God. Personally, I can't see a place where people sing and praise God 24/7 and have a grand time doing so. Why would the Creator need such a display? If He deemed it proper, I would gladly praise Him. I guess that I believe that surrender of free will is what got me to heaven in the first place, so its all His show! Edited by Phat, : add by edit
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If you are on a hike and you are unsure of the territory, don't you defer your right to guide yourself to the leader who knows where he/she is going?
What is it about surrendering free will to God that strikes such a terror in peoples hearts? Sometimes, its wise to listen to Daddy....especially if He knows the territory and we don't. Edited by Phat, : title
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ramoss writes: If being in God's presense is so convincing, even for an irrational being, why would Satan, and a full 1/3 of the angels rebel? What is wrong with Heaven they decided to leave it? I dunno. Maybe...
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Using your analogy, I am assuming that the Guide is God, the map is the Bible (or any other spiritual book, perhaps?) and the territory in this thread is Heaven.
You still must test the Guide and Map against the Territory. Edited by Phat, : edit
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Vacate writes: So to begin with, we as Christians need to come to terms with what it is that God expects of us. When God created man he allowed for free will. I understand the idea behind this being God did not want “robots” that simply worship, but humans who worship because they choose to do so. The consequences of this is that humanity suffered The Fall and introduced sin. (This may be a poor generalization, but I believe the idea to be essentially correct) It makes some sense to me that to worship God means that we stive to do our best each and every day in our relationships with others. This would go nicely in line with The Greatest Commandment. It also makes sense that if I don't worry about eternity and Heaven since I cannot possibly know the expectations and dynamics of such concepts but, rather..concentrate on my daily walk it is the best and noblest thing I can do.
Vacate writes: I would like to know if there is information in the Bible that refers in some detail about this.Phat writes: If not, how would a Christian answer this? (I realize asking about Heaven is like asking what biology is like on a distant planet, I am more interested in opinions) And that is a matter of interpretation. And so here we are!
Jar writes: Well, that flows nicely with much of the theological precepts that I had been taught. Namely,
Satan's problem was that he would not bow down to and worship man as God demanded.If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. ”Phillipians 2:1-4 Does it not logically flow, then, that if we are to consider others better than ourselves that we should consider God in the same way?
Ringo writes: Of course not. But the summation of everything God intends Is God so limited that He can have only one fixed "plan"?or foreknows is in fact the best plan, wouldnt you think?
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: Doesn't it seem likely that God would "design" heaven to be the way we would like it? We exist to please Him rather than He existing to please us. The question is also this:
I will agree with you on only one basic point.
Ringo writes: And the answer is that we do not collectively know.
What do we know about "the summation of everything God intends or foreknows"?
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: I thought about this, and I suppose that were it not for humans there would be no need for Heaven,no? Doesn't it seem likely that God would "design" heaven to be the way we would like it? But by the same logic, we could assert that God created the entire universe for us, could'nt we?
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