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Author Topic:   Trolling techniques
Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7608 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 1 of 66 (38670)
05-01-2003 7:41 PM


Newbies on the board may not have come across Inquisitor or their style of posting before. We can assure you that we get a lot of it here and we're quite used to it. The methodology is quite easy to recognize, but for newbies I thought I would describe it here, so they can better understand how such people operate.
The first point to make is that you can use Zephan or Inquisitor's techniques with any subject whatsoever against any opponent whatsoever.
Let's take the origin of early 19th century Estonian knitting patterns as an example...
Firstly accuse your opponent of being obviously ignorant:
"That you can call Parnovsky an expert make you sound stupid to anyone who knows anything on this subject." or "You show absolutely no knowledge of this at all and you're just beginning to sound like an idiot - anyone can cut and paste a comment on haarttinnasa. When will you post YOUR definition of a plain stitch? I predict never - because you effectively have no mind of your in these matters."
Sound familiar in tone and technique? See how easy it is to do this without actually knowing anything about the subject, other than one or two key terms which can be dropped in to the post.
Secondly, pick up on ANY point you can in your opponent's post, but ensure you do not make any substantive statement yourself, because if you do you will leave yourself open to the same attack:
Read your post again. You say "huovista is not known until 1830, so we can date this later huovistinaa to perhaps 1850." You reveal your total prejudice you dumazz and you're too blind to even see it! Just because huovista is not known doesn't mean it didn't exist. What a loser! Saying "later huovistinaa" just shows how blindly prejudiced you are - you already believe huovistinaa to be what you are trying to prove. Take a logic course!
Again, I'm sure the tone and technique are familiar.
Thirdly, refuse to make any substantive statement, insisting that this is your opponent's role, and hoping that you can appear authoritative by taking the high ground.
You're the one claiming that plain stitch is different in Estonia - but you cannot or will not even define it. PROVE to me that you know what you're talking about, then I might have time for a discussion. But until you can demonstrate that you even know the basic concepts, I have to assume your just a blindly prejudiced ignorant dumazz.
See? And the cool thing is - if the opponent responds with a defintion, they have effectively conceded that it is their role to provide it. Now you're on the high ground and you can take full advantage of it. You can now play the master card of demanding some sort of "authoritative" position from your opponent - especially if this can be done in an area where there is no appropriate codifying body - science, logic, knitting etc - so much the better. If they provide a definition, you demand a better one.
"That's YOUR definition? It's pathetic. It has been refuted more times than you could possibly know. Show me ONE official definition that agrees with you and I'll consider replying."
From now on it's plain sailing. You have shown nothing of your hand - not even that you have no hand to show, but you have attacked your opponent in four areas from which they cannot hit back without using your own techniques.
How to respond to this? Well, the first thing may actually be to dance a little with such a correspondent. They may not be intentionally mendacious. We have seen this with quite a few posters over the years, who do eventually get on track and post substantively. They start off with virulent, demanding posts, then settle down into more reasoned argument when they realize that they are not getting anywhere, and that their opponents may actually have some interesting things to say- even if we disagree with every word.
But let's assume the pattern just continues. This is where we are with Inquisitor.
You can ignore the troll - which is fine, and perhaps the best course if you feel there is a danger you might stoop to their tactics through frustration.
To a certain extent you can wait for the troll to trip up, which they will do. Zephan, hilariously, got muddled over "burden of proof." However, because they never have to post anything substantive this can be a long wait. The more they merely respond, rather than initiating, the less chance there is.
You can also wait for them to be banned - most often because they just resort to a stream of insubstantial and insulting posts. Remember, their key motivation is to show their cleverness compared to others - they will attempt this from the first post by referring to the foolishness of others - but eventually they have to make this point more and more insistently and in the long run will just be reduced to one or two totally content-free insulting posts. At that point it is farewell. This course is inevitable if the response to their posts is calm, reasoned and substantiated. Their response to measured reason, and substantiation, is as visceral as that of a vampire to garlic.
Finally, you can call their bluff. This can work extremely well, if the troll gets over confident. Remember the example of Zephan, whose credibility vanished as soon as he declared himself to be "an expert in evidence." From that point on, it was downhill all the way, because every post revealed that claim to have been a totally empty boast. Calling their bluff can be pretty easy, but it requires discipline - and the cooperation of other posters. At it's simplest it is the equivalent of saying: we know we have a lot to learn, we know our knowledge is imperfect in some of these areas, can you take an example and post something that will enlighten us? For example, what is the most important issue in 19th century Estonian knitwear? Chances are you will never hear from them again - the one thing they dare not do is put their head above the parapet.
So be patient. Read the troll's posts, learn from their techniques, laugh at their vanity, and wait.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 05-01-2003 8:02 PM Mister Pamboli has replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7608 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 3 of 66 (38678)
05-01-2003 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by crashfrog
05-01-2003 8:02 PM


Without checking back through the archives - I am a bit pressed for time today - I would say "nos' and "wordswordsman" were good examples you could check out. I think they were actually tempted into the mistake of posting a couple of substantive points, as I remember. That was fun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 05-01-2003 8:02 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 05-01-2003 8:51 PM Mister Pamboli has not replied
 Message 12 by Mammuthus, posted 05-05-2003 7:01 AM Mister Pamboli has not replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7608 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 9 of 66 (38716)
05-02-2003 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by roxrkool
05-02-2003 12:38 AM


Hey don't we all sometimes? It becomes a problem occurs when can only respond in kind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by roxrkool, posted 05-02-2003 12:38 AM roxrkool has not replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7608 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 20 of 66 (39137)
05-06-2003 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
05-06-2003 7:26 PM


quote:
Aren't all creationists, by definition, liars anyway?
as a person who believes in creation this seems a little insulting
As one who does not, I agree with you. Creationists can be very sincere indeed - I know many creationists in whose integrity I have and do place the greatest trust.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 05-06-2003 7:26 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by mike the wiz, posted 05-06-2003 8:26 PM Mister Pamboli has not replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7608 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 21 of 66 (39141)
05-06-2003 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by mike the wiz
05-06-2003 8:12 PM


quote:
the challenge was to get me to believe in evolution with one reason, i am not a fool nor ignorant , it is you who have failed to convince me , so stop whining because i threw a knockout punch ,as i said the simplist explanation is often the correct one.
I think this hardly a knockout punch - you set up the challenge (give me one reason), you have the sole judgement of success (only you know if he got you to believe or not) and you define the parameters (the simplest explanation is often the correct one.)
You threw nothing but a challenge you had no interest in giving serious consideration to - as you said, you find science frankly boring and a babble.
This is the kind of behaviour which give creationists a bad name. You may not be a liar, but you don't give anyone the slightest reason to care what, or if, you think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 05-06-2003 8:12 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by mike the wiz, posted 05-06-2003 8:32 PM Mister Pamboli has replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7608 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 24 of 66 (39149)
05-06-2003 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by mike the wiz
05-06-2003 8:32 PM


You do raise an interesting point, which may be worth pursuing on another thread: compelling resaons for believing in evolution that are not highly technical - how to convice a layman.
Anybody feel like opening a thread on this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by mike the wiz, posted 05-06-2003 8:32 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by crashfrog, posted 05-06-2003 9:57 PM Mister Pamboli has not replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7608 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 39 of 66 (39242)
05-07-2003 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Attorney at Law
05-07-2003 9:45 AM


quote:
That said, a Jury Trial is not a system for interpreting the law as you believe. In fact, it is a well-established methodology for determining evidence for or against a specified theory, and is the most reliable mechanism in place today for ascertaining the truth of an alleged past event or fact
This is hopelessly naive, surely.
Firstly the jury can only determine the evidence it is presented with: in the UK systems and in the US system, in so far as I understand it, that subset of evidence is controlled by the Judge. So the jury does not determine evidence in a broad sense - in the way a French Juge d'Instruction may do - but only determines evidence that has been preselected and filtered by opposing sides to suit their purposes. It is difficult to see how this could be used to determine the validity of a scientific theory.
Secondly, juries do not determine the truth of propositions. At the very most, they determine the persuasiveness of one version of events against another. Of course, that does not mean they are not capable of finding the truth - but they are not seeking truth in a general sense, rather the truth of a proposition against a narrowly defined and arbitrary set of parameters.
I sat on a jury once where the summing up consisted of 10 minutes of factual review and thirty minutes of legal review (setting our parameters.) The judge need not have bothered. He required a unanimous verdict and three of my fellow jurors had decided that, as the defendant was a Roman Catholic, he was obviously guilty.
quote:
On a side note, it would be interesting to see evolution brought to trial in order to see if it could stand up to the strict scrutiny of the fact finding process. But where and how would one begin proving evolution to a Jury? That is the question.
The first question would be why would it be brought to a jury? What could it mean in legal terms to bring a scientific theory to a jury for determination?
It would be interesting, as a spectator sport, to see any scientific theory whatsoever brought before a court. It would not tell us anything about the validity of the theory, but would be a curious experiment. Similarly it would be interesting to see the outcome of criminal trial determined by empirical science. Different horses, different courses.
Trial by jury is not a generalized method for determining the truth of any given proposition, historical or otherwise. If it were a suitably reliable method for science or history then we could solve many scientific or historical issues by submitting them to juries. Perhaps a jury could sit in deliberation of some of the outstanding problems in quantum physics, or in deliberation of the neurological causes of Parkinsonism. Perhaps a jury could determine once and for all what led to the exitinction of the dinosaurs, or the collapse of Mayan power in pre-Colombian Central America. But it can be seen pretty easily that all the jury would be assessing would be the persuasiveness of the argument to a jury.
Juries do not determine truth. The law determines that what a jury determines is definitive. That's all, really.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Attorney at Law, posted 05-07-2003 9:45 AM Attorney at Law has not replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7608 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 46 of 66 (39269)
05-07-2003 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Attorney at Law
05-07-2003 4:30 PM


quote:
OJ Simpson was convicted at a civil trial in a wrongful death action.
Just to picky - and I want to learn something new today - was he convicted or found liable? In a civil case in the US, can one be found guilty? Was this just a slip-up (we all make them) or am I missing something?
quote:
I believe they still use the phrase "not proven" for verdicts in the UK so as not to confuse people into thinking that just because something is not proven, the theory of innocence is proven.
In Scotland yes, not in England and Wales, or Northern Ireland. In former times, the Scottish criminal jurisdiction returned only two verdicts - proven and not proven. Proven became Guilty to be in line with England, and Not Guilty was introduced for more clarity. Guilty = He certainly did it. Not Guilty = He certainly did not do it. Not proven = It was not proven that he did it.
quote:
crashfrog: Legal courts of law - jury trial, any kind of trial - are inherently unsuitable for the anlysis of scientific evidence because of their authority.
Attorney: This is also incorrect. You wouldn't have much luck convincing any lawyer, judge, or jury with this false assertion. But maybe you are right, and the entire legal community is wrong.
This comes back to something I posted - that the legal system is only suitable for judging within its own parameters.
Given an arbitrary set of parameters, the legal system does a good job, to my mind, of judging the application of scientific evidence to the consideration of issues within its purview and within the arbitrary rules it sets up for itself - with a fundamental bias to the argument from authority.
But science doesn't work that way; no clear purview, no arbitrary rules, no definitive judgements; just a constant, ever-revising, ever-challenged empirical search for the best explanation. Not the the best of two explanations provided by opposing sides, not the best explanation which the judge allows to be led, not the best explanation from evidence permissable under an imposed set of rules; just striving for the best explanation.
That, I think, is what crashfrog was getting at. cf - correct me if I've misundertood you.
[This message has been edited by Mister Pamboli, 05-07-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Attorney at Law, posted 05-07-2003 4:30 PM Attorney at Law has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Mr. Attorney, posted 05-08-2003 8:29 AM Mister Pamboli has not replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7608 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 62 of 66 (39398)
05-08-2003 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Mr. Attorney
05-08-2003 8:29 AM


quote:
I used the term "conviction" to mean "the final judgment on a verdict" (Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Edition), and I apologize for using the term so loosely. However, it does appear that its intended meaning was received
Thanks for the honest answer - I appreciate it. The intended meaning was clear enough in context, it was the term itself that I wondered at.
The term "civil conviction" does appear in the law in the UK but it is used in courts martial for what we would call in common speech "civilian convictions." I believe the same usage is common in US Courts Martial.
BTW, the general feeling in Scotland at the time was that OJ was a classical candidate for not proven. In fact, he still provides a good populist example for those who defend the continued use of the not proven verdict. It was pretty clear from his trial that the prosecution had not proven their case beyond reasonable doubt - much of the evidence was pretty compelling, but there was clearly room for at least some doubt, cleverly handled by his defence. Without not proven the only alternative is inot guilty[/i], which, in this case, also seemed unsatisfactory.
Are traffic violations civil delicts in the US? That's interesting. One thing I have been surprised at over here is how easy people find it to get off with speeding tickets compared to the UK. Not lighter punishments, but actually having the ticket quashed. Given the standard of proof in civil cases is lower than in criminal, you would think that would make it harder to have the ticket quashed, no? The implication is that the police here are not even gathering a preponderance of evidence - that can't reflect well on them!
quote:
Pamboli: Given an arbitrary set of parameters
AaL: Parameters are clearly defined, you'll have to explain your point better
My turn to apologize for being unclear! Arbitrary is perhaps too negative a word, but my point is this: the clear rules by which the legal system operates are imposed as rules. For example, those who spend time in the criminal or civil courts sooner or later come across situations where evidence cannot be led for technicalities - invalid search warrants, for example. These rules are essential to the justice system, but science is more empirical. The rules may be repeatability, falsifiability (if you follow Popper), inductive logic and so on, but they are not codified - there is no body which administers them or determines them. Even peer review does not come close to being a legalistic framework for assessing science. There are no bodies to determine what is scientifically valid; and, as Huxley said, No bell rings when Science has found the truth.
quote:
Pamboli: to the consideration of issues within its purview
AaL: Or, more accurately, the issue presently before the court.
In this case, there was some value in my precise wording, as there is a limit to what can be brought before a court. One of the curious things about asking if a scientific theory could stand up in court is wondering how it would find itself there!
The revolution of the earth around the sun, is not in itself, as a scientific theory, within the purview of a court - at least not in the UK. (Who knows what they could lead in the US!) A court would not sit in judgement of whether the earth revolved around the sun. What may be in the purview of the court could be a case to which the truth or falsity of a theory would be germane.
quote:
Pamboli: with a fundamental bias to the argument from authority.
AaL: What authority?
I believe the system in the US is basically the same as in the UK, that scientific evidence is presented in court by expert witnesses (authorities) whose authority is typically established and relied upon. I believe the US takes this further and has some case law (Daubert) that determines that peer-reviewed journals provide suitably authoritative means of establishing a certain baseline of acceptance for what may be a novel scientific approach. Is this right?
Either way, the court works from the authority of its expert witnesses and does not perform empirical science itself. Having sat through too many civil cases with too much technical evidence led by expert witnesses I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard the phrase Is it your opinion that ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Mr. Attorney, posted 05-08-2003 8:29 AM Mr. Attorney has not replied

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