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Author Topic:   "Sudden Origins" by Jeffery H Schwartz
Percy
Member
Posts: 22505
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 3 of 18 (405432)
06-12-2007 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
06-12-2007 8:59 PM


The close of Schwartz's Message 39 neatly sums up where he's probably going in his book: Darwinism "is not a viable model for the origin/emergence of novelty."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 06-12-2007 8:59 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 06-14-2007 8:24 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 17 by RAZD, posted 08-10-2007 6:24 PM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22505
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 11 of 18 (409385)
07-09-2007 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Cold Foreign Object
07-05-2007 8:29 PM


Percy writes:
Schwartz is one of your own...
Since Schwartz believes that Darwinism "is not a viable model for the origin/emergence of novelty," I don't think very many who understand how powerfully the theory of evolution interprets the body of evidence would consider him one their own. See his recent paper that was the topic of the Dr. Schwartz' "MIssing Links" thread, and his Message 31.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-05-2007 8:29 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-09-2007 11:59 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22505
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 13 of 18 (409426)
07-09-2007 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Cold Foreign Object
07-09-2007 11:59 AM


Cold Foreign Object writes:
How would you classify or label Schwartz?
As I said in Message 51 of the Dr. Schwartz' "MIssing Links" thread, "He is an example of the worst kind of scientist one can imagine, one who just like creationists lets his ideas about the way the world must be govern his acceptance and interpretation of evidence."
Percy writes:
http://< !--UB EvC Forum: Dr. Schwartz' "MIssing Links" -->http://EvC Forum: Dr. Schwartz' "MIssing Links" -->EvC Forum: Dr. Schwartz' "MIssing Links"< !--UE-->
"Schwartz is just an anthropologist venturing outside his field."
So is Eugenie Scott for that matter (anthropologist). Michael Ruse and Daniel Dennett are philosophers. Dawkins is a zoologist, yet is he not considered a respectable authority on genes? My point is: this type of point (pasted above) is not a good point?
You've drawn my comment out of context. In the original message in which it appeared, that comment was a reference to Schwartz's research paper on molecular clocks that appeared in an obscure journal not even devoted to that field of research, probably to evade peer review. I don't believe Eugenie Scott, Michael Ruse or Daniel Dennett are seeking out obscure non-peer reviewed journals in which to publish work outside their fields.
As a professor at the University of Pittsburgh, Schwartz is probably caught in a publish or perish dilemma. Unable to promote his ideas about human ancestry in mainstream journals, he's seeking out less demanding journals that are willing to consider papers whose quality and rigour isn't up to standards.
Schwartz is an unlucky victim of genetic analysis. His ideas about the relatedness of orangutans and humans were scholarly, astute and persuasive, but when genetic analysis ruled out the possibility he refused to abandon it. Instead of incorporating the new information into his thinking, he attacked it, and continues to attack it. Since the evidence he's been able to muster for his views is not only inadequate but even misused (see RAZD's comments on his book), he's been marginalized, and he's probably fighting for his professional career at this point. I assume he has tenure and can't be fired, but he's probably getting the worst offices, the worst grad students, the worst class assignments. He's floundering about trying to find some way to regain the prestige he once had in the 1990's.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-09-2007 11:59 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-09-2007 3:18 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22505
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 16 of 18 (409470)
07-09-2007 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object
07-09-2007 3:18 PM


Cold Foreign Object writes:
As I said in Message 51 of the Dr. Schwartz' "MIssing Links" thread, "He is an example of the worst kind of scientist one can imagine, one who just like creationists lets his ideas about the way the world must be govern his acceptance and interpretation of evidence."
So evolutionists have the magical ability to leave their bias, worldviews and preconceptions at the lab door and everyone else does not?
Surely that is not your point?
Yes, you are correct, that is not my point. Schwartz is continuing to argue a point that genetic analysis settled a while ago, and he arguing it not from evidence but just because he won't give up his pet view that brought him professional fame back in the 1990's. What he's doing is like continuing to argue for a flat earth in an era of moon landings. Not quite so dramatic, perhaps, but you get the idea.
I was under the belief that anyone can contribute to mainstream journals as long as they have credentials.
No, of course not. There's peer review. After a paper has been accepted for consideration by editors, legitimate technical journals send it out to as few as 2 and as many as 5 peer reviewers (scientists from the same field), who remain anonymous to the paper's authors. Based upon the results of the peer review the paper is either accepted, accepted provisionally based upon whether requested changes are made in a satisfactory manner, or rejected.
Are you saying that in addition to credentials a person must promote the majority view?
No, of course not. A paper must meet certain standards and criteria, which is why I stated that Schwartz's paper doesn't meet the normal standards for a professional technical paper. Foremost among these standards is that the paper must be based upon sound evidence and reasoning. Schwartz has only circumstantial evidence for his views in the form of phenotypal observations, while the rather conclusive genetic evidence says he's dead wrong, and he tries to overcome this through transparently bad reasoning and mischaracterization of the nature of existing evidence. Legitimate journals will not consider papers that combine poor evidence with poor reasoning and outright misrepresentations. That's why he has to carry out his attacks on molecular clocks in obscure journals.
Are you saying that Schwartz has become a crackpot? Is John Davison a crackpot?
Yes and yes. Of course! Indubitably! Without a doubt! Count on it! For sure! You betcha!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-09-2007 3:18 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
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