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Author Topic:   "Sudden Origins" by Jeffery H Schwartz
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 8 of 18 (408902)
07-05-2007 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
06-12-2007 8:59 PM


RAZD: Have you read the Introduction or Preface to this book? Schwartz gives a tremendous historical overview, leading up to the synthesis, and through the synthesis. This is the context of everything written thereafter. Schwartz is one of your own and he is a brilliant writer and anthropologist. Your dismissals of Schwartz is baffling.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 06-12-2007 8:59 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 07-05-2007 9:42 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 11 by Percy, posted 07-09-2007 7:47 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 10 of 18 (409122)
07-07-2007 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
07-05-2007 9:42 PM


Read It
Yes I've read the intro and the preface. I find the book dull, repetitious and dodging back and forth, rather than concise. Hardly brilliant to me. The book does not grab me.
Yes the history information is interesting, but it at this point (half-way through) it is not anything new, and some of it is rather selective in what is said and what is not said.
I just want to say that the history review is the very best short, to the point, concise and well written summary that will be found anywhere. Persons who are new and learning about the history of evolutionary ideas and science can read this section and instantly receive an accurate gestalt of said theory.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 07-05-2007 9:42 PM RAZD has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 12 of 18 (409419)
07-09-2007 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Percy
07-09-2007 7:47 AM


Ray, originally writes:
Schwartz is one of your own...
I should not have written this. I do not think that Schwartz is "one of your own" because the title of his book "Sudden Origins" is prima facie evidence to the contrary (in addition to the points you also made).
Since Schwartz believes that Darwinism "is not a viable model for the origin/emergence of novelty," SNIP...
How would you classify or label Schwartz?
Percy writes:
http://EvC Forum: Dr. Schwartz' "MIssing Links" -->EvC Forum: Dr. Schwartz' "MIssing Links"
"Schwartz is just an anthropologist venturing outside his field."
So is Eugenie Scott for that matter (anthropologist). Michael Ruse and Daniel Dennett are philosophers. Dawkins is a zoologist, yet is he not considered a respectable authority on genes? My point is: this type of point (pasted above) is not a good point?
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Percy, posted 07-09-2007 7:47 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 07-09-2007 12:48 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 14 of 18 (409460)
07-09-2007 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Percy
07-09-2007 12:48 PM


As I said in Message 51 of the Dr. Schwartz' "MIssing Links" thread, "He is an example of the worst kind of scientist one can imagine, one who just like creationists lets his ideas about the way the world must be govern his acceptance and interpretation of evidence."
So evolutionists have the magical ability to leave their bias, worldviews and preconceptions at the lab door and everyone else does not?
Surely that is not your point?
You've drawn my comment out of context. In the original message in which it appeared, that comment was a reference to Schwartz's research paper on molecular clocks that appeared in an obscure journal not even devoted to that field of research, probably to evade peer review.
Yes, it was an accidental quote-mine. Now I understand.
As a professor at the University of Pittsburgh, Schwartz is probably caught in a publish or perish dilemma. Unable to promote his ideas about human ancestry in mainstream journals, he's seeking out less demanding journals that are willing to consider papers whose quality and rigour isn't up to standards.
I was under the belief that anyone can contribute to mainstream journals as long as they have credentials. Are you saying that in addition to credentials a person must promote the majority view? IDists are criticized for not publishing in these journals but according to your point (if I am understanding it correctly) they are not eligible to be published based on non-mainstream views? If true, why are IDists criticized in this respect in the first place since their views are not eligible for publishing in these publications?
Schwartz is an unlucky victim of genetic analysis. His ideas about the relatedness of orangutans and humans were scholarly, astute and persuasive, but when genetic analysis ruled out the possibility he refused to abandon it. Instead of incorporating the new information into his thinking, he attacked it, and continues to attack it. Since the evidence he's been able to muster for his views is not only inadequate but even misused (see RAZD's comments on his book), he's been marginalized, and he's probably fighting for his professional career at this point. I assume he has tenure and can't be fired, but he's probably getting the worst offices, the worst grad students, the worst class assignments. He's floundering about trying to find some way to regain the prestige he once had in the 1990's.
Are you saying that Schwartz has become a crackpot? Is John Davison a crackpot?
I am through here. I hope you choose to respond.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 07-09-2007 12:48 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Wounded King, posted 07-09-2007 3:34 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 07-09-2007 3:59 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
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