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Author
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Topic: Faith by Definition
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 117 of 149 (436152)
11-24-2007 3:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 116 by iano
11-24-2007 3:05 PM
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iano still dances.
jar writes: So is your answer that it is impossible to test whether something is of divine or non-divine origin?
iano writes: er...no. My answer was that you cannot test for the divine (in terms of it existing or no). The divine must come to man - not man coming to the divine (by way of his man-sized tests) So are you saying you can test to see if something is of divine or non-divine origin?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 116 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 3:05 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 118 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 3:18 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 119 of 149 (436162)
11-24-2007 3:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 118 by iano
11-24-2007 3:18 PM
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Re: iano still dances.
Now I can. After experiencing the divine I have a measure against which to examine subsequents. But that is different to testing for the existance of the divine in the first place. Which seemed to be your bent Then present us with the specifics of the test to see if the source is divine or non-divine?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 118 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 3:18 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 120 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 3:36 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 122 of 149 (436202)
11-24-2007 5:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 120 by iano
11-24-2007 3:36 PM
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Re: iano still dances.
Present you with the specifics? Are you not being a little presumptuous in supposing that you would be in a position to understand the specifics? On what basis that notion? On the basis that you have claimed it is possible to test to determine whether something is of divine or non-divine origin. Then present us with the specifics of the test to see if the source is divine or non-divine?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 120 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 3:36 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 123 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 5:30 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 124 of 149 (436211)
11-24-2007 5:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 123 by iano
11-24-2007 5:30 PM
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Re: iano still dances.
I have claimed it is possible that I can test. This on the basis of my prior exposure to the divine. Yes you have made such an assertion, however it is absolutely nothing but a bald faced assertion since you have never explained how you could tell you have had prior exposure to the divine. What test can be used to determine that there is some exposure to the divine as opposed to the non-divine?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 123 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 5:30 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 125 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 7:06 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 126 of 149 (436234)
11-24-2007 7:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 125 by iano
11-24-2007 7:06 PM
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Re: iano still dances.
What test can be used to determine that there is some exposure to the divine as opposed to the non-divine? Sorry iano but iano writes: "You don't test for the divine (in the first instance regarding his existance). He shows up. If he does then you know he exists (on the basis of him conforming and being able to conform you so that you "know" he exist)." is simply jabberwocky. It has no meaning or relevance. The question remains how do you test to see if she showed up? How do you test to determine if some event has a divine origin or non-divine.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 125 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 7:06 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 127 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 7:23 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 128 of 149 (436242)
11-24-2007 7:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 127 by iano
11-24-2007 7:23 PM
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You still have not answered the question
What test can be used to determine that there is some exposure to the divine as opposed to the non-divine? Sorry iano but iano writes: "You don't test for the divine (in the first instance regarding his existance). He shows up. If he does then you know he exists (on the basis of him conforming and being able to conform you so that you "know" he exist)." is simply jabberwocky. It has no meaning or relevance. The question remains how do you test to see if she showed up? How do you test to determine if some event has a divine origin or non-divine.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 127 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 7:23 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 130 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 7:36 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 131 of 149 (436246)
11-24-2007 7:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 130 by iano
11-24-2007 7:36 PM
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Re: You still have not answered the question
You actually have two questions. The first involves the existance of the divine at all. No test is required for that - as has already been pointed out. So you assert. But that is all, simply an unsupported assertion.
The second question involves situations post-knowledge of the existance of the divine. There is no point in going into this area with you given that you are currently a lost person and any atttempt at discussion really would appear jabberwocky to you. Sorry but simply nonsense. To have knowledge of the existence of the divine you must be able to test whether some event is caused by the divine or non-divine.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 130 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 7:36 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 133 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 7:55 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 135 of 149 (436255)
11-24-2007 8:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 133 by iano
11-24-2007 7:55 PM
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Re: You still have not answered the question
If the divine decides you shall know then you shall know. It's hard to argue against it - not that you have tried. How will you know? What tests can be applied to tell if it is of divine or non-divine origin? You still have not described the test.
To have knowledge of the existance of the divine only requires an act of the divine that ensures your brain takes on the pattern "I know". I'm sorry but what test is used to determine if the divine or some non-divine source caused the yet undefined pattern?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 133 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 7:55 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 137 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 8:19 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 138 of 149 (436267)
11-24-2007 8:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 137 by iano
11-24-2007 8:19 PM
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Re: You still have not answered the question
Well as usual you quoted only part of what I asked.
iano writes: If the divine decides you shall know then you shall know. It's hard to argue against it - not that you have tried. jar writes: How will you know? What tests can be applied to tell if it is of divine or non-divine origin? You still have not described the test. You make a claim. I asked how you test that. You still have not answered. Then you say:
iano writes: The same way as anyone knows anything. Their brain cells/atoms/synapses conform to a particular pattern. That's all knowing is - we might agree. What is that pattern? How do we test that pattern? What test shows us that the pattern was created by divine rather than non-divine methods.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 137 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 8:19 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 139 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 8:58 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 140 of 149 (436274)
11-24-2007 9:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 139 by iano
11-24-2007 8:58 PM
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Re: You still have not answered the question
Well this has gone on long enough. The audience can read the thread and make their own judgment about whether or not you have addressed the issue.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 139 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 8:58 PM | | iano has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 145 of 149 (436408)
11-25-2007 3:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 144 by nator
11-25-2007 3:16 PM
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Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
The key thing is that the tests you use can be used by anyone. They do not depend on some Special Pleading. For example, I could compare a recording of the phone conversation with a recording of your husband speaking and determine with a high confidence level if it was the same voice, EVEN if I had never met your husband. I could check independently the origin and destination of the call. I could independently check the physical location of you and your husband during the time period of the call. I could independently determine the duration of the call. It is that independence of confirmation that is important and that iano refuses (well, let's face it, is unable) to address.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 144 by nator, posted 11-25-2007 3:16 PM | | nator has not replied |
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