Straggler writes:
The prophecy-free reality and the prophecy-inclusive reality are not the same reality. They are not the same "static line".
That is exactly my point.
IF the two are not the same static line, then Free Will is removed.
Then we agree.........?
Stile writes:
However, IF AND ONLY IF it is possible to add the information of the prophecy and the two remain the exact same static line... then free will is still intact.
This is a contradiction in terms. This is truly impossible. This is where your whole argument falls flat.
A timeline is a unique sequence of points made up of events, choices and states of being (knowledge, thoughts, emotions etc. etc.). How can you conceivably insert an additional event including the knowledge that this event brings and the subsequent changes that this has on the state of being and call it the same timeline?
From the point on this timeline at which the prophecy is introduced the prophecy-including and prophecy-excluding timelines
MUST diverge.
Anything else is contradictory.
I totally understand how this may be incredibly difficult given all the nuances of human thought. However, I do not place this incredible difficulty above the abilities of a being such as Odin
Does omnipotence include the ability to inherently contradict?
Can omnipotence make two things that are inherently different remain different yet be the same?
Can an omnipotent being create a weight that they cannot lift? etc. etc. etc.
For it is this sort of inherent contradiction that must exist if your claim that -
(prophecy-excluding timeline) = (prophecy-including timeline)is to remain true.
Stile writes:
IF the two are not the same static line, then Free Will is removed.
The prophecy-excluding and the prophecy-including timelines are inherently and intrinsically different.
Thus free-will is negated as we both agree.
Only by absolute internal contradiction can you claim otherwise.
Straggler writes:
Unknowable because we cannot immutably know what an agent of free-will would have done in any given specific scenario without denying them the free-will to choose otherwise
My very point is that you cannot back this up.
I totally agree that this is unknowable to us humans.
What I'm saying is that this is not unknowable for a being like Odin. If we have an omnipotent, all-knowing, all-powerful being who can see the future... how is this then unknowable to Odin?
Odin can see the future. Fine. But this prophecy-excluding future never actually existed if Odin introduces his prophecy. Thus any conclusions he draws from this alterante reality future are irrelevant with regard to the future actually encountered, the one that includes the prophecy, by our agent of free-will.
What makes this beyond Odin's abilities?
The fact that by introducing a prophecy known to Carl he effectively deletes the prophecy-excluding future that he is basing his conclusions on.
If Odin can see our "non-interference" static life-line, what makes it impossible for him to know how his interference will create a different static life-line? Especially given that he is "all-knowing?"
If a being has free-will, if a being genuinely has free-choice then we can only immutably know what that being decides to do in a precise and specific situation once it has been observed to exert it's free-will in that exact precise and specific situation. Anything else is a denial of free-will.
Odin can watch the sequence of these demonstrations of free-will from his lofty eternal perspective. He can see the effect each point on the static non-interference line and how this relates to all subsequent points on that line.
But as soon as he introduces a prophecy, as soon as he has changed the mental state of our agent of free-will with that knowledge, he has changed the exact, precise and specific situation from which our agent of free-will was previously observed to form the rest of that prophecy-free timeline.
The timeline IS different from that point on. Anything else is inherently contradictory.
How are you going to show that it is impossible for an all-knowing being like Odin to not know how this static line of Carl's would turn out even if Carl never actually experiences it?
Because this contradicts any notion of choice or free-will.
If we immutably know what somebody would do is a precise situation that they have never even considered or encountered then how can it be said that they have any choice should they ever actually consider or encounter that situation?
There are no choices there is only an immutable certainty. Any choice is an illusion. The action is wholly deterministic.
Do you see the problem here?
But, if we agree that Odin is capable of foreseeing these random choices in Carl's non-interference static life-line, even before Carl has actually experienced it, why do you not agree that Odin is capable of foreseeing other random choices of an alternate static life-line of Carl's before Carl actually experiences it?
Because the first is observing, from an eternal perspective, the net result of Carl's free-will choices. The net result of the actual choices Carl really does make in the entirety of his life
The second however is only one alternate reality amongst an infinite number. At every choice in Carl's life another potential branch exists. If Carl, our agent of free-will, is not exerting his free-will to narrow down these branches and make a single line then who is?
Of all the possible alternatives that can exist how is there a single line for Odin to observe?
Do you see the problem here?
What, exactly is the difference?
One timeline is defined by Carl's free-will and the other is not.
You agree to this:
Carl's non-interference static life line:
-contains random elements of Carl's decision making process
-Carl has not made these decisions yet
-Odin is able to foresee Carl's decisions before Carl makes them
You do not agree to this:
Carl's interference static life line:
-contains random elements of Carl's decision making process
-Carl has not made these decisions yet
-Odin is able to foresee Carl's decisions before Carl makes them
Why do you agree with one and not the other? If Odin has the ability to see what Carl will choose before Carl chooses it in one case, why can't Odin do it in another case?
What, specifically, is the difference?
Because in one case Odin is watching the net effect of Carl's free-will as a single timeline.
In the other case there can only be a single line to observe if Odin, rather than Carl, selects one.
Do you see the difference?
Straggler writes:
What if we reverse time in this hypothetical prophecy-free scenario of yours and Carl makes a different decision? What then?
Then you do not agree that Carl's life-line into the future is a static line.
The net result of all Carl's choices in life form a static line from an eternal perspective.
But if we erase a piece of this line from the end to a point where free-will can be exerted then potentially a single line that is different to the original could be formed.
But there is only ever a single line.
Carl has free-will. At no point on his line are his subsequent actions pre-determined. The path taken depends on the choice made.
If it is possible to reverse time and Carl makes a different decision... then it is also possible to go forward in time and Carl makes a different decision... logically, anyway.
But you agreed that Carl's future was a static life-line (given no interference). So, if you want to stay consistent, this means that Carl's past (no matter how many times we re-run it) is also a static life-line (given no interference).
From and eternal perspective which are the future parts of the line and which are the past? This makes no sense.
Take any point on the line and remove the end of the line from that point (removing the beginning of the line would result in Carl springing into existence at that point and is forbidden unless Odin wants to perform a miracle).
A single static line will reform. The exact path of this line will depend on Carl's real choices. The exact path of this line might be different each time Odin erases the end of the line.
Such is the nature of free-will.
This is what I meant by reversing time from Odin's perspective.
Odin from his eternal perspective will only ever see a single static line. Which line he see depends on Carl's free choices.
Anywthing else is a predetermined path that denies Carl any free-will at all.
How can Carl have any free-will at any point in the line if the path after that point is immutable and unchangable even if erased?
If there is a chance that re-running the past decisions may turn out differently... then there is a chance that running the future decisions even once may produce unpredictable results... and we're left with the ability to see the strict, static future to be impossible. Which may very well be true, my arguement rests on the ability of an omnipotent being to have this future-seeing ability. If we say that's impossible, then my arguement is also impossible. However IF such a thing is possible, the my arguement remains intact.
Your argument does not remain intact.
Your single, immutable and repeatable static line inherently denies choice and free-will at every point upon that line. How can it possibly be otherwise?
This is why I wanted to make sure you agreed that if Odin can see Carl's static non-interference life-line into the future, that free will was still intact.
Perhaps you'd like to retract such an agreement?
No I don't want to retract this. Carl's choices, whatever they may be, form a unique static line from Odin's eternal time-external perspective. That's fine by me.
But it is Carl who must shapes this line if free-will is to be maintained. There is no predetermined line. There is only Odin's ability to see whatever line Carl creates in full from his eternal perspective.
The rest of your post is irrelevent until we get past this issue.
Really? Hmmmmmm.
In the context of this debate I have no problem with the concept of an omnipotent being that can passively observe the entirety of a man's life past present and future all at once.
A single "static line" if you will that encompasses all of the choices that the man has made in his life into a single path. That's not the problem.
It is the entire problem, actually.
What now?
Well........
You could try explaining how a timeline in which a prophecy event and the subsequent knowledge that this imparts can possibly be identical to a timeline in which this event and knowledge are not present?
You could try explaining how a decision made using free-will can be guaranteed to be immutably the same if repeated?
You could try and explain how a static and wholly repeatable timeline can possibly result in anything other than pre-determination and denial of free-will at every point along that line.
How's that?
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