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Author Topic:   Benevolence and Conflict
Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2360 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 40 of 59 (500231)
02-24-2009 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Blue Jay
02-23-2009 10:25 PM


Re: Autonomy
bluejay writes:
I concluded that conflict is an unavoidable side effect of free will. And, any attempt to control the "bad" effects of conflict would be plagued with more conflict over what constitutes "bad," and would only be resolved by the loss of free will.
And so where does that leave us, with respect to having any sort of reliable, coherent understanding or expectation about what God might be doing for us, or what His purpose(s) might be, or what considerations should hold sway as we try to decide on our various individual courses of action?
Things happen that we perceive to be bad, often as a direct and unavoidable consequence of conflict, which is an intrinsic property of our existence. And God, in whom we believe and to whom we pray, lets (makes?) these things happen for reasons beyond our ken -- and so we must accept these things because God's judgment is in fact inscrutable to us.
Please try to explain where I've gone wrong in trying to follow your logic, because when I put that line of reasoning up against general assertions like "God is good" and "God's purpose is made clear to us in the Bible" and "the Bible is the foundation of moral judgment" and so on, I detect a colossal self-contradiction, or at least, a substantial tendency to be misleading, misguided, and fairly meaningless.
I think I can follow that line of thought further to conclude that, since God does not inhibit free will, He is not really in a position to answer a significant proportion of prayers. Is that consistent with your point of view?
Ultimately, I would pursue this perspective on God to arrive at something quite similar to what Dawkins says about deism/theism in general: that this is an unnecessary and superfluous concept -- it really contributes nothing to our overall understanding of ourselves, our situation, or reality as a whole. Everything can be understood much more clearly and coherently on the basis of natural (as opposed to supernatural) explanations and practical evidence, or practical inference where evidence is lacking, or sensible analogy/metaphor wherever practicality might somehow be "inapplicable". No deities with special powers are required.
Any sense of purpose that we might detect is purely of our own invention. This fact in itself does not devalue the sense of purpose that we instinctively assign to existence as we perceive it, but like everything else in our perception, our current understanding of purpose leaves room for improvement. Fortunately, there seems to be a built-in tendency for "improvement" (in some inter-subjective sense that is shared by many of us) to be a predominant vector as we continue to evolve.
Obviously, there are ample opportunities for interruption, reversal or even outright annihilation of that vector, but in a non-deistic culture, we would at least have the wherewithal to improve our understanding of it while it continues, and to do what we can to try to keep it going, without struggling over vain attempts to attribute everything to some inscrutable entity that requires our devotion.
Edited by Otto Tellick, : minor edit in 5th paragraph

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Blue Jay, posted 02-23-2009 10:25 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Blue Jay, posted 02-24-2009 9:03 AM Otto Tellick has replied

  
Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2360 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 50 of 59 (500317)
02-24-2009 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Blue Jay
02-24-2009 9:03 AM


Re: Autonomy
bluejay writes:
But, god must allow free will if he is to be benevolent, because there can be no benevolence without a beneficiary, and there can be no beneficiaries without independence. And, conflict is an unavoidable side effect of independence.
And this makes me wonder: what constitutes "God's benevolence"? What does that amount to, really? And whatever that might be, what good is it to me, in terms of getting me through my day-to-day existence, given that it clearly does not amount to anything that will reliably produce effects that I would consider beneficial?
Perhaps my wife and/or I will die in a car accident caused by some other driver whose free will led him to get drunk and then drive. Is that the sort of thing we're talking about? Obviously, it's the sort of thing that happens a lot in the real world, and it seems as though you're trying to provide some perspective on God whereby that can sensibly be viewed as an aspect of God's benevolence, or at least as something that does not negate the concept of a benevolent God.
Sorry, I just don't get it. I do appreciate your ability to provide and maintain a focus in the discussion, and this has helped me to clarify things in my own mind -- it's just that the particular perspective you seem to be proposing is something that seems quite unclear to me now. At least, it's unclear to me why any effort should be spent trying to make some sort of presentable case for this supernatural entity.

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Blue Jay, posted 02-24-2009 9:03 AM Blue Jay has not replied

  
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