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Author Topic:   Hi !
Wise
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 301 (54821)
09-10-2003 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by crashfrog
09-10-2003 6:54 PM


BTW, Science (NASA) just discovered today (MUSIC) deep tones coming from black holes.
It's not music, it's just sound. Unless it's "music" when I pass gas, as well.
What deepening understanding do you speak of?
The steady advancement of science, while religious thought remains mired in the Middle Ages.
Boy, have YOU been brainwashed !
ARE you AWARE that If it was not for religious thought Science would not even EXIST?
You need to do a study on early education. Are you aware that it was RELIGION thay kept Science, and ALL higher forms of MATH, TRIG and educatiopn alive and flourishing during the middle ages?
At one time it was the CLERGY who possesd it ALL!! The world had a big FAT "0"
Don't believe me?
Are you aware that Harvard was started by a Minister who donated I believe nearly 400 books of education ? {John Harvard)Are you also aware that, at one time, in order to attend HARVARD one HAD TO take seminary?
Now, the same applies to
Harvard
Oxford
Princeton
Yale
And MORE !!
Wise

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2003 6:54 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2003 10:30 PM Wise has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 32 of 301 (54822)
09-10-2003 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Wise
09-10-2003 6:35 PM


Hi,
GOOD GOLLY, Don't you know that we have ANCIENT writings from the catacombs with the word YESHUA written on them!
Well since Yeshua (Joshua) was a very common name why are you surprised by this?
By the way, I believe Ceasars history was recorded 1,ooo years AFTER he existed. Do we question his existance?
But we have ample contemporary references to Julius Caesar, and some of his writings. Here is an extract from Francesco Petrarca's Letter to the Roman Emperor Charles IV in 1355, quoted in A Renaissance Sense of the Past Peter Burke Edward Arnold London, 1969.
'I own a number of Julius Caesar's personal letters. His speeches, many of which are to be found in the works of Lucan and other writers, and one in Sallust, were not composed by him, but by those writers themselves. But he dictated his letters in person. Here is an example.
Caesar to Oppius and Cornelius, greetings. I am most glad to learn from your letters that you approve completely of what was done at Confinium. I should be glad of your advice, all the more because I plan to do something that I sarcely pprove of myself
There are a few more examples in the book. Caesar is very well attested to as an historical figure, the appeals of certain apologetic websites to the lack of sources for Caesar are simply down to poor scholarship or being too lazy to research the subject themselves they just repeat these amateur errors ad infinitum!.
Brian.
[This message has been edited by Brian, 09-10-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Wise, posted 09-10-2003 6:35 PM Wise has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Wise, posted 09-10-2003 10:57 PM Brian has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 33 of 301 (54823)
09-10-2003 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Wise
09-10-2003 6:56 PM


Witnesses, *500* at ONE TIME
Wise, maybe you could provide "some" of the names of these 500 witnesses and references to anything they might have written concerning their eyewitness accounts?
You know, 1000 people saw the Great Galactic Goat come down and have tea and crumpets with me. Don't believe me? Why? After all I have said there were 1000 witnesses.
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Wise, posted 09-10-2003 6:56 PM Wise has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Wise, posted 09-10-2003 11:54 PM Asgara has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 34 of 301 (54839)
09-10-2003 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Wise
09-10-2003 7:06 PM


ARE you AWARE that If it was not for religious thought Science would not even EXIST?
yeah, I'm very aware. Islamic scientists were phenominal astronomers. We still use most of their star names. Chinese medicine came to be very well developed from their religious philosophies. European Christianity preserved most of the works of Greek philosophers, but added little else to science.
The question is, what's happened since? Why is modern fundamentalist Chrisianity so anti-science? Absolutely nothing you've brought up has anything to do with the modern relationship of science and religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Wise, posted 09-10-2003 7:06 PM Wise has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Wise, posted 09-10-2003 11:19 PM crashfrog has replied

Wise
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 301 (54843)
09-10-2003 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Brian
09-10-2003 7:07 PM


Hi,
GOOD GOLLY, Don't you know that we have ANCIENT writings from the catacombs with the word YESHUA written on them!
Well since Yeshua (Joshua) was a very common name why are you surprised by this?
There is much more. These catacombs were the first Christian burial sites found upon the Mount of olives!
By the way, I believe Ceasars history was recorded 1,ooo years AFTER he existed. Do we question his existance?
But we have ample contemporary references to Julius Caesar, and some of his writings. Here is an extract from Francesco Petrarca's Letter to the Roman Emperor Charles IV in 1355, quoted in A Renaissance Sense of the Past Peter Burke Edward Arnold London, 1969.
'I own a number of Julius Caesar's personal letters. His speeches, many of which are to be found in the works of Lucan and other writers, and one in Sallust, were not composed by him, but by those writers themselves. But he dictated his letters in person. Here is an example.
Caesar to Oppius and Cornelius, greetings. I am most glad to learn from your letters that you approve completely of what was done at Confinium. I should be glad of your advice, all the more because I plan to do something that I sarcely pprove of myself
There are a few more examples in the book. Caesar is very well attested to as an historical figure, the appeals of certain apologetic websites to the lack of sources for Caesar are simply down to poor scholarship or being too lazy to research the subject themselves they just repeat these amateur errors ad infinitum!.
Wise----Nice little "snippet" you have there.
Very nice,But it pales in comparison to the some 15,000 or so Christian documents contained within the antiquitiesconcerning Jesus !
Your info is ALSO very contemporary. BUT Christianity has documents as close to 60A.D. concerning Christ !
That is CLOSE.
DEADLY close.
And there have even been reports of some very very old Syriac gospels from 30 A.D.!
Wise
[This message has been edited by Wise, 09-10-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Brian, posted 09-10-2003 7:07 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Loudmouth, posted 09-10-2003 11:13 PM Wise has replied
 Message 53 by Brian, posted 09-11-2003 10:12 AM Wise has replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 301 (54850)
09-10-2003 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Wise
09-10-2003 10:57 PM


The ascension of the Prophet Muhammed was witnessed by hundreds. Do you follow the teachings of the Qur'an?
There are numerous witnesses attesting to the validity of the Greek gods. For instance, the runner who was delivering a message to Marathon stopped along the way and talked to Pan. Do you believe in the Greek gods?
Many unexplained miracles have been attributed to the Dali Lama. Are you Buddhist?
See what I'm getting at? Eyewitness accounts in religious documents PROVE nothing. We can't KNOW exact events unless they are recorded in a non-biased manner. What we BELIEVE, however, is up to us. Hence the inalienable right to freely practice religion.
As far as humans knowing everything? Probably never will, but trying sure is fun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Wise, posted 09-10-2003 10:57 PM Wise has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Wise, posted 09-10-2003 11:29 PM Loudmouth has replied

Wise
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 301 (54851)
09-10-2003 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by crashfrog
09-10-2003 10:30 PM


ARE you AWARE that If it was not for religious thought Science would not even EXIST?
yeah, I'm very aware. Islamic scientists were phenominal astronomers. We still use most of their star names. Chinese medicine came to be very well developed from their religious philosophies. European Christianity preserved most of the works of Greek philosophers, but added little else to science.
The question is, what's happened since? Why is modern fundamentalist Chrisianity so anti-science? Absolutely nothing you've brought up has anything to do with the modern relationship of science and religion.
Science will FAIL without Christianity. Its death knell is already in place.
Remember, it was Christianity that
Nourished it
Cherished it
Taught it
Allowed it to flourish
At the time the only other schools that existed were military, or physical oriented schools.
And now you ask, "what has happened since?"
Open your eyes.
How has Public education been doing lately? Have they been turning out scholars?
The Public School system is a failure. And guess what? It is absent of God ! Do you see the connection?
What has Christianity done since?
Home School.
It IS a Christian idea. You see, God ALWAYS entrusts the very best to his own. ALWAYS. And quess what? He is returning the very best to his own, right BEFORE your eyes !
Wise

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2003 10:30 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2003 12:32 AM Wise has not replied
 Message 59 by docpotato, posted 09-11-2003 3:32 PM Wise has not replied
 Message 60 by Dan Carroll, posted 09-11-2003 3:49 PM Wise has replied

Wise
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 301 (54852)
09-10-2003 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Loudmouth
09-10-2003 11:13 PM


The ascension of the Prophet Muhammed was witnessed by hundreds. Do you follow the teachings of the Qur'an?
Prove it. Chapter and verse?
There are numerous witnesses attesting to the validity of the Greek gods. For instance, the runner who was delivering a message to Marathon stopped along the way and talked to Pan. Do you believe in the Greek gods?
Numerous? You have shown one individual with no supporting documents.
Many unexplained miracles have been attributed to the Dali Lama. Are you Buddhist?
So what? Irrelevant.
See what I'm getting at? Eyewitness accounts in religious documents PROVE nothing. We can't KNOW exact events unless they are recorded in a non-biased manner. What we BELIEVE, however, is up to us. Hence the inalienable right to freely practice religion.
Tell that to professor Greanleaf. Eyewitness accounts by *4* different authors and hosts of other individuals at once mean something. Keep in mind that these individuals gave their very lives for it.
BTW, Christianity is the ONLY faith that has a resurrection WITH witnesses. This separates it from A-L-L religions.
Wise

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Loudmouth, posted 09-10-2003 11:13 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Loudmouth, posted 09-11-2003 12:57 AM Wise has replied

Wise
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 301 (54853)
09-10-2003 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Asgara
09-10-2003 7:07 PM


Witnesses, *500* at ONE TIME
Wise, maybe you could provide "some" of the names of these 500 witnesses and references to anything they might have written concerning their eyewitness accounts?
You know, 1000 people saw the Great Galactic Goat come down and have tea and crumpets with me. Don't believe me? Why? After all I have said there were 1000 witnesses.
Yes, and can you provide *4* different authors with the SAME story?
Heh heh...
Nope.
Wise

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Asgara, posted 09-10-2003 7:07 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2003 12:33 AM Wise has not replied
 Message 46 by Asgara, posted 09-11-2003 1:30 AM Wise has replied

Wise
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 301 (54854)
09-11-2003 12:05 AM



crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 41 of 301 (54855)
09-11-2003 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Wise
09-10-2003 11:19 PM


How has Public education been doing lately? Have they been turning out scholars?
Well, there's some scholars here. Why don't you ask them if they went to public school?
At the time the only other schools that existed were military, or physical oriented schools.
In Europe, yes. China has a scholastic tradition that extends back for thousands of years.
Allowed it to flourish
Oh, right, like how they allowed Galileo to do his science. Oh, wait. The exact opposite.
Home School.
The blind leading the blind, you mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Wise, posted 09-10-2003 11:19 PM Wise has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 42 of 301 (54856)
09-11-2003 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Wise
09-10-2003 11:54 PM


Yes, and can you provide *4* different authors with the SAME story?
Why, can you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Wise, posted 09-10-2003 11:54 PM Wise has not replied

DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3806 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 43 of 301 (54858)
09-11-2003 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Wise
09-10-2003 5:02 PM


Depends
Well since time is relative, the time it takes for someone to travel across our Galaxy, at or close to the speed of light, it would depend on their frame of reference. For an observer, say on the Earth, it would take about 100,000 years or so. For the traveler, it would take him 10 years or so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Wise, posted 09-10-2003 5:02 PM Wise has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 301 (54859)
09-11-2003 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Wise
09-10-2003 11:29 PM


Prove it. Chapter and verse?
Retracted, don't know what I was thinking. My memory is fading.
Tell that to professor Greanleaf. Eyewitness accounts by *4* different authors and hosts of other individuals at once mean something. Keep in mind that these individuals gave their very lives for it.
The four gospels aren't necessarily penned by the apostles named. Some religious scholars posit that the gospels were penned and then attributed to one of the apostles to give their writings validity. Also, they might have been passed along as oral tradition among the followers of Jesus.
http://www.onr.com/user/bejo/4gospels.htm
Introduction - the Gospels
The original authorship can not be confirmed, therefore the validity of eyewitness accounts can not be confirmed. As far as the followers giving up their lives, look at war where the only thing being fought for is freedom. People give up their lives for many reasons, even false pretenses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Wise, posted 09-10-2003 11:29 PM Wise has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Wise, posted 09-11-2003 8:48 AM Loudmouth has not replied

awinkisas
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 301 (54862)
09-11-2003 1:25 AM


Well Wise, you’ve been busy since I last checked this site.
I’d like to start by noting that during the Middle Ages the Church did nothing to foster science. It was actually the Muslims, Chinese and Indians who were the most active during this time. For example, the great library of Alexandria was destroyed by a Christian riot in A.D. 389. The church even resurrected the theory that the earth was flat and at around the same time the Academy and the Lyceum were closed down by Justinian. The only positive thing that can be said about the church during this period was they preserved the knowledge of the Greeks. They however attempted to integrate the philosophy of Aristotle with Catholic theology. That set the field of science back because now everything had to be reconciled with Aristotelian teachings. So as you can see the church did very little to help science. In fact it required a renaissance in order to overcome the church. Science had to be "born again".

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Wise, posted 09-11-2003 9:05 AM awinkisas has replied

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