Conservative? and Chomsky

After I was introduced to the work of Chet Bowers [C. A. Bowers, Online articles and books ] I developed an appreciation of what conservative should mean. For me, conservative now refers to indigenous peoples, and modern groups such as the Mennonites and Amish who like indigenous peoples take the long term survival of the group as the most important value. They evaluate change based on how it will affect not only the present but many generations down the line.In America most of those who call themselves conservative, such as Republicans and libertarians, are market liberals and imperialists. They tend to put great value on the individual allowing greed and stupidity to degrade and destroy the environment. I am outraged that these market liberals have successfully displaced and marginalized true conservatives and replaced conservatism with a very radical and destructive philosophy of imperialism and individualism that is destroying the environment and the very conservative people who proved themselves to be capable of living sustainably in their world for generation after generation.Having read Derrick Jensen, Alan Ereira, Morris Berman and many others, I have become skeptical and critical of the claim that civilization is superior to indigenous tribal societies. I am outraged by the claim of both honest liberals, and the dishonest market liberals (who falsely label their radical individualism as conservatism) to superiority over the indigenous "savage" peoples of the world.

Very brief and partial reply here. I did not mean that liberals are honest and conservative dishonest in all areas, I meant that liberals honestly identify themselves as liberals and market liberals mis identify themselves as conservative.The important thing to grasp is that conservatism implies that people are reluctant to change what works. If you want to equate tribalism with socialism, I suppose that works, though it is also very participatory democracy. The major thing is that the well being of the group and of future generations is much more important than individual gratification. I strongly belief that it is not conservative to advance individualism and individual rights at the expense of the well being of current and future members of the group.Aztecs were civilized. They had cities. The Mayan were also civilized but returned to agarian life when their cities proved unsustainable. Yes, tribal societies have made poor decisions. Jared Diamond in Collapse details some of those.I first of all want to challange the the dominant mythologies off civilization that protect the destructive practises engaged in. I also realize that at this time in my life I really can't take the time to participate in any depth at all in this discussion. That is one reason I've cited books and a web site because the truly conservative peoples of this world even to the Amish in the US are being pushed to the brink of extinction by the greed of liberals and market liberals.I would like market liberals to be so labeled and the term conservative to be used for those peoples I've mentioned who do not advocate rampant individualism and exploitation of the environment and other countries and peoples. Winston Churchill for example is listed as conservative but he was a brutal imperialist as witness India and South Africa. I don't know what the neo in neo cons stood for but Iraq was a war of imperialism for individual gain for example. It was not a conservative endeavor.The United States after WWII emerged as the inheritor of British Imperialism. The corruption and decadence we are seeing is the result of that. Imperialist powers slowly bleed themselves to collapse by their expenditures for militarism. And the United States is doing that. These cycles of empire go back to Sumer, Babylon, etc. Nothing I can do about. But I can't stand the lies and hypocrisies that market liberals and liberals engage in to sugar coat their brutal exploitation of the poor and indigenous peoples of the world.I just lost a paragraph do to some weird delete action and I've no time to repeat it tonight. It's bad the suffering that Bush and Cheney inflicted on people in order to make their buddies in business rich by ripping off ordinary tax payers, but when they lie about being conservative it makes me sick. We don't see the Amish and Mennonite or Native Americans advocating war and running scams to get rich. It is wrong for evil doers to claim that their evil doing is conservatism. Some one needs to be saying that the emperor has no clothes on.If people knew what conservatism really was they could make informed choices. Perhaps they would prefer the liberal and market liberal world of consumerism and militarism and the wealth that flows into the United States from the exploitation of third world peoples, but at least real conservative would receive respect.I don't know what you mean by "imperialist is way off." What is Manifest Destiny? The wars against the Native Americans, Spain, Mexico, on and on, gun boat diplomacy? If that isn't imperialism what is?no more time to edit. this will have to stand for now.

Hear! Hear! Well said. Thankyou.

I suppose it came across as an implication but I don't think it is conscious and deliberate though at one time it may have been. I don't know how it originated and I wish I had the time to research Edmund Burke and what followed as I think there may be something in that history.As to tribalism and genocide. I realize there are so many possibilities. Are you thinking of modern middle eastern politics? Rwanda? New Guinea? Maori? Warfare seems much more common than genocide. As I am in the middle of a move I just don't have time to check this out. I think it was Jared Diamond in Collapse who wrote a perceptive analysis of the Rwanda genocide. But I could have read it else where.I believe collectivism refers to a modern state. Tribalism is on a much smaller and more personal scale. I don't think collectivism is the same thing at all. I apologize again for finding myself in a situation where I can't adequately research and annotate my views except in general terms. It is one thing if I know you or know some one who knows you versus decisions being made by someone who doesn't know me at all.Casinos are a new development that emerged in trying to deal with the dominant culture. The variety and diversity of Native American tribal history is more than I have time to deal with now. Another, I know it is general, reference is Michel Foucault's analysis of the modern state. I will also cite Wandering God: A Study in Nomadic Spirituality by Morris Berman. But I've run out of time again.Some Amish may be rich but taxation is resulting on many leaving the USA for Latin America.