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Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Is the bible authoritive and truly inspired? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:This thread isn't about the truth of the Bible. It's about authority and inspiration. It doesn't matter if what the authors wrote is true or not. Do we have what the authors wrote? No, we don't have the actual originals. We have some versions due to textual criticism take us back to the closest we have to an "original". Playing the emotional experience card is exactly what charlatans do. "Don't look at the text and just listen to what I'm saying." That's how the snare people. Understanding the reality of the Bible can help people make an informed choice instead of an emotional choice. Understanding the reality of the Bible can help people not get taken advantage of by an oppressive church. I suggest that if you don't like textual criticism, that you don't participate in these types of discussions. You're not moving the discussion forward.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:That question doesn't make sense given what I said. Whether the Bible is authoritative and truly inspired is the point of the thread. The question has been several times, which version of the Bible is sanctioned by God? quote:So it is important that we know what was actually written before we can determine whether it is true. If a portion wasn't written by the original author, but is determine to be true, then does God sanction changing the text back to the oldest version or did he inspire the scribe to make the change and it should be left as is? quote:Textual criticism is necessary to understand what the authors actually wrote. There's no way to know whether God saves sinners or not if you referring to the salvation after death. If you're talking about someone changing their wrong behavior to right behavior, that happens in society without the Bible. Judaism inspires some to change, Buddhism inspires some to change, Islam inspires some to change, etc. Some are inspired to change and then find a religion to help them understand how to behave. Even religion free people are inspired to change their life to better behavior without religion. So that's not really a selling point for the authority or inspiration of the Bible or the "truth" for that matter. Without man religion doesn't exist. Mankind gives religion its power. Mankind gives authority to the Bible(s). That's why there are so many different Bibles that are the "authority" for the various groups that use them. If the KJV is translated from a flawed text, who sanctioned the translation? God or man? You're not showing me that God; as opposed to theological issues, social issues, and political issues; inspired the writers. IMO, they were all sources for inspiration for the writers, the scribes, the translators, and the textual critics. Playing on emotions and weaknesses is what pulls people into cults and religion if they weren't born into them. Show me that Ehrman's facts are wrong.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Exodus 17:14 is not speaking of the work we know as Exodus. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven." The narrator is telling us that Moses was told to write about the battle with Amalek and his people. As for the rest that refer to the book of the law, Law of Moses, or the book of the covenant; the text doesn't reflect that it is talking about the books containing those statements or the compilation containing those books. Jewish tradition says that Moses wrote the first five books. Jewish tradition also says that the original scroll of the Torah and other holy writings were burned when the Temple was destroyed in 587 BCE based on the first century writing 4 Ezra 14:2-22. This is supposedly Ezra speaking to God.
[21] For thy law is burnt, therefore no man knoweth the things that are done of thee, or the work that shall begin.
[22] But if I have found grace before thee, send the Holy Ghost into me, and I shall write all that hath been done in the world since the beginning, which were written in thy law, that men may find thy path, and that they which will live in the latter days may live. In the book entitled "A History of the Jews" by Paul Johnson, Johnson notes that intellectual Jewish Reformers, about 170 bce, understood that the Law they had was not very old and did not go back to the time of Moses. (Page 101) ABE: Literary and Historical Criticism of the Pentateuch Edited by purpledawn, : ABE: Some light reading The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin. --Gospel of Mary
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Yes, it would be nice if we had all the letters written to Paul as well as his responses, but we don't so it is useless in this discussion. Given Paul's more equal treatment of women in his writings, the verses don't fit and as I explained in Message 316, scholars feel the verses were later margin notes added to the text by scribes. When compared to other manuscripts, the verses weren't always placed in the same place and contradict earlier teachings in the same letter.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:This is all irrelevant to whether the Bible is authoritative and truly inspired. Whether a god is all powerful or not, moral or not, just or not; does not dictate whether the holy books of this god are authoritative and truly inspired. It may be why some believe they are, but trying to show that the god of the Bible is immoral or unjust doesn't mean the holy books of the religion are not authoritative or inspired. Look at the questions in Message 1.
1. Was it possible for these imperfect men to produce a record that is actually Gods message? 2. How do we know they did not write of their own impulse, but were inspired by God as they claim? 3. How do we know the writings we have today are the same as they were written by the original men who wrote it. This thread isn't about whether God is real, moral, all powerfull, or just.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I still disagree and will be watching the discussion. If it turns into the same old morality discussion, it will probably be closed.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I'm not talking about "typos". The added lines I mentioned in Message 316 are not typos. In Message 312, I listed the top ten most familiar verses that weren't originally in the New Testament. This means that all people throughout the ages were not guided by the same words. I agree that the "typos" for the most part don't impact the basic tenets of Christianity, but the additions/omissions might. It is debatable whether the additions were made to support a tenet or a tenet was based on the "original" manuscript. This would make a good topic in itself. I will probably propose a thread when I get time to write a good OP. The Johannine Comma is a good example. The words in bold below are not in the older Greek manuscripts, but were in the later Latin Vulgate.
1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." This can impact the Doctrine of the Trinity and potentially the divinity of Jesus. Read these parallels from various version of our Bible today.
1 John 5:7 Here are two examples:
New International Version (1984)
Which one has the authority and why?For there are three that testify: King James BibleFor there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. Ultimately people give authority to the version of the Bible they choose to use in their religion; but since Christianity is not a theocracy, the Bible does not have authority outside of a religion. Quite frankly, Christians choose what portions have "authority" over their daily lives. The authors of the NT weren't all necessarily presenting the same message.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I'm sure you don't, but the fact is that there are significant discrepancies between the older manuscripts and the new ones, which means there are discrepancies between some versions of the Bible that Christians use for their religion as you can see in the parallel link. So which version has the authority or is the authority really with the clergy? That's who people listen to. Most Christians haven't really read the Bible. They listen to sermons or Bible studies that pull verses from various authors to make a main point. The layperson isn't necessarily learning what point the author was actually making in the writing. The Christian Bible by itself has no authority. It's just a book. It doesn't give our clergy their authority. People do that.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Nope the people bestowed the authority on the books they chose to be in the canon and destroyed some of the ones that didn't agree with their point of view. The debates lasted centuries before the canon was closed and changed many times. Some books didn't make it into the canon because they could be used by a variant Christian group. quote:That shows me that the Bible isn't the authority. You've made the authority the divine spirit. That's one way to get away from the discrepancies in the writings. Religion evolves and changes. The same thing happened in the first few centuries of Christianity and even since the canon was closed and it will continue to evolve and change to suit the culture. The Bible has some good lessons that can be brought forward and used, but there is no authority within its pages to which we can be held accountable unwillingly.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
According to Catholicism the Bible's authority rests on the authority of the Church, not the other way. Protestants on the other hand, abandoned tradition as an authority and turned to the Bible. Oddly enough, what the Protestants turn to as an authority was put together by the authority of the Catholic Church.
So while the writings in the Bible are inspired by the needs of the people, the Bible only has authority that man bestows upon it. The Bible only has authority when it suits their purpose. The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin. --Gospel of Mary |
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