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Author Topic:   Textual Discrepancies & How They Could Impact Christianity
iano
Member (Idle past 1972 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 39 of 93 (588421)
10-25-2010 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
10-24-2010 9:54 AM


Re: Original Autographs
Jar writes:
However a Jew of the period would understand that 40 is one of the magic numbers, like 3 and 7 and 12 and so was symbolic.
So, how did Jews of the time differentiate between the magical application of a number and the literal application? For instance, if I said to someone then that I was going to come and visit with them in 3 days should they do as you do here and shoot for symbolic touch - or should they set about preparing a room?
Or to put it another way. If Jesus fasted for an actual "fourty days" without eating an actual "anything", how would that be described?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 10-24-2010 9:54 AM jar has replied

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iano
Member (Idle past 1972 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 47 of 93 (588495)
10-26-2010 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Omnivorous
10-25-2010 11:49 PM


Re: Original Autographs
Omnivorous writes:
Is that an accusation of satanic associations or something like?
I wouldn't think so. I hazard a guess that it's an honest appraisal of what is there to be seen. Something that rings true being assailed by something that rings hollow.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Omnivorous, posted 10-25-2010 11:49 PM Omnivorous has replied

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iano
Member (Idle past 1972 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 52 of 93 (588511)
10-26-2010 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
10-26-2010 8:37 AM


Re: The Bible is not a Unified Revelation
Jar writes:
And it seems you still don't get it. The quotes themselves are not quote mining, your acts, your practice of pulling stuff out of context is quote mining.
The 'context of the quote' is the introduction. The introduction tells us the context with which we are to read the rest. And that introduction tells that historical reportage is to follow.
The story is meant as epic, it is a symbolic tale that describes HUMAN traits, being tempted and resisting temptation. It was not meant as a literal event.
How do you deal with Luke's apparent disagreement? Do you claim to know his intent better than he did?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

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 Message 49 by jar, posted 10-26-2010 8:37 AM jar has replied

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 Message 53 by jar, posted 10-26-2010 9:36 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1972 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 54 of 93 (588601)
10-26-2010 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jar
10-26-2010 9:36 AM


Re: The Bible is not a Unified Revelation
jar writes:
The beginning of Moby Dick uses similar language and the book itself uses many of the same writing techniques.
You're meandering off the point.
A quotemine takes a persons (Lukes) statement out of the context they (Luke) intended. Jaywill wasn't quotemining Lukes introduction in supporting his contention that Lukes account is historical - for that is the very context Luke intends to set (it being the introduction).
Whether it's truly historical or not isn't the issue. Whether it's a quotemine or not is.
-
It is likely that the actual character Luke never even met Jesus and that the actual author of Luke was reporting hearsay (and of course, cribbing off even earlier Gospels and narratives).
I'm sure a lot of historians didn't meet the characters about whom they write. And 'cribbed' their information from various sources. History doesn't necessarily morph into allegory by their doing this.
-
The story of the temptation in the desert is filled with symbolism and is an allegorical fable. It's likely that the author of Luke was creating a larger allegorical narrative and so changed the ordering and timing of events to suit his particular voice.
The story being filled with symbolism detracts not one iota from it's historicity. It would more than add to it in the specific case of a long-awaited Messiah.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 10-26-2010 9:36 AM jar has replied

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 Message 55 by jar, posted 10-26-2010 7:49 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1972 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 56 of 93 (588655)
10-27-2010 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by jar
10-26-2010 7:49 PM


Re: The Bible is not a Unified Revelation
jar writes:
It is precisely on topic.
I'd remind you that the topic is your claim of (supposed) quote-mining.
-
The quote taken from Luke aligns well with the opening of Moby Dick, a character, in the Gospel Luke, in Moby Dick the character Ishmael, makes a claim, of historicity.
You can quotemine Moby Dick by taking something stated in Moby Dick out of the context the author of Moby Dick intended. Whether or not Moby Dick is actual history or not is irrelevant to the issue of quotemining or no.
It is not quotemining to point to Lukes declaration that his account is a historical one. The question then is whether you trust his claim. Jaywill says he does.
-
jawill was using that quote to support his assertion that the account of the temptation was to be taken as factual and literal.
I think jaywill was doing as I am doing - countering your 'it's allegorical' claim by:
a) pointing to the fact that the author doesn't agree with your view.
b) stating his trusting the authors position over yours.
-
I am simply pointing out that the author of Luke was using that same techniques of allegory...
You say. He says not. A question of trust.
-
The Textual discrepancies, for example between the account of the temptation in Luke and in Matthew would not have been significant or important to Jews of the time because they recognized that the writers were using symbolism and allegory.
I'll restrict myself to contending with a single issue: your claim of quotemining. It's better that way

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 Message 55 by jar, posted 10-26-2010 7:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 10-27-2010 9:35 AM iano has seen this message but not replied

  
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