On the road with a few friends this weekend, we pulled into a town that, from the highway, had a giant Rebel flag waving. One of the guys in the car said, "Well I guess we know how this towns feelings about minorities are," which we all laughed at, but then it sparked a debate. What does it actually stand for?
His position was that it stood for racism and waving the flag showed support for that idieology.
My position was that the flag has been adopted as a symbol of rebellion and didn't actually represent racism or support for it in all cases. I made the point that bands like Pantera, who's lead singer is latin, waved the flag. Their reason was that of rebellion.
So who is right?
I did some research and found that it was one of many flags flown by the south during the Civil War, and this particular flag was their "fight" flag. After that it became synonymous with a variety of things, one being racism, the other being rebellion by youths, some of which are racist but not it's not exclussive.
My other point was that other flags, like the US flag could, if one wanted to, be said to represent the slaughter of native Americans - regardless of how many there were. Also, for example, the Cuban flag could be said to represent communist Cuba but, someone like my dad would not agree with that, arguing that it still, for him, represents a Castro-free Cuba.
So who is right?
Can symbols like flags represent many things individually or does everything they represent get lumped in depending on where you're from?
His position was that it stood for racism and waving the flag showed support for that ideology.
I assume by rebel flag you mean the confederate battle flag.
Both of you are about 40% right. The flag stands for a bunch of things. Waving it does not necessarily show support for racism. The problem is that there is seldom enough context for people to know what meaning the waver wants to invoke.
Representing 'rebellion' is somewhat of a cop-out. Rebellion against what exactly? Rebellion against the Constitution? Big Government? Society in General? Being Civil War Losers? Having to attend public school with black children?
The state of Georgia incorporated the battle flag into its state flag in 1956 to show rebellion against the Supreme Court decision in Brown v. Board of Education. Mississippi made similar changes to their flag in the 1890s.
quote:A strong impetus for change, however, was the 1954 and 1955 Brown v. Board of Education decisions, which were bitterly denounced by most Georgia political leaders. The entire 1956 legislative session was devoted to Governor Marvin Griffin's platform of "massive resistance" to federally imposed integration of public schools. In this charged atmosphere, legislation to put the Confederate battle flag on Georgia's state flag sailed through the General Assembly
The rebel flag has plenty of baggage and at least some rebel flag wavers are racists and intend to invoke a racist meaning. I don't agree that the US flag has that same baggage and usually there is enough context to tell that the waver isn't not trying to offend Native Americans.
About the only thing I could say with a high degree of certainty is that rebel flag wavers don't care much, if at all, whether people think they are racists.
The fact that bands 'like Pantera' wave the flag isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. I don't believe the Pantera used racist lyrics but weren't there racist rumors about Anselmo? Is he the Latin lead singer you are talking about? I can't reach any conclusion about bands like Pantera except to say that heavy metal music is far more likely to draw skin heads than black people. I can't imagine Marvin Gaye waving a rebel flag while singing Viet Nam protest songs.
But at least bands come to town for a night or two and leave. They don't wave a huge flag that appears to represent a whole town. A town city rebel flag is very uninviting in my opinion.
No, the confederate flag doesn't necessarily refer to racism. However, waving it in certain context definitely is.
For example, suppose I go to a Jewish community center and start waving the nazi flag in the name of national socialism. Do you think anyone will be stupid enough to actually believe I'm not referring to anti-semitism at all? When pressed and questioned, I will continue to say that I'm only there to support national socialism. But please, the context says otherwise.
I find it absolutely appalling that people frequently wave the confederate flag into the faces of black and latino people while proclaiming that they're actually referring to rebellion to the government.
onifre writes:
My other point was that other flags, like the US flag could, if one wanted to, be said to represent the slaughter of native Americans
Actually, let me tell you the difference between waving the confederate flag into the faces of black and latino people and waving the american flag around native americans. Between the current US and native american tribes, there have been talks, compromises, representations, attempts at healings, compensations, etc. We have an understanding of each other. And the US freely admits that we once tried to exterminate their asses.
The same thing can't be said about the confederates (the descendants of the confederacy) and the descendants of the nazis.
Flags are no different from other symbols - their meaning is subjective, and can change from one person to the next.
For some people and in some context, the Confederate flag is a symbol of racism, oppression, and the worst of humanity.
For others it's a symbol of treason.
For some, it's a symbol of "heritage" and "history" (the heritage of racial slavery and treason...).
For a few, it's just the design on the top of the car from Dukes of Hazard.
You can't really pin down what a symbol means, because meanings can change from one person to next, from one moment to the next.
To me, the Confederate flag is a symbol of rcial oppression, involuntary servitude, crimes against humanity, and treason. When I see people celebrating their "Confederate heritage" with the flag, all I can think about is "these people are actually celebrating a society whose primary defining characteristics were slavery based on race and treason, effectively celebrating crimes against humanity and war against the United States. Considering these are typically conservatives in the 'I love America, you liberals stop hating America, America FUCK YEAH' crowd, this is particularly confusing, as loving America and celebrating those who committed treason against it and broke the Union appear to be mutually exclusive."
I'm not particularly fond of the Confederate flag or anyone who flies it, obviously. This is part of the reason that my time living in the American South was as short as I could manage.
Representing 'rebellion' is somewhat of a cop-out. Rebellion against what exactly?
I can only assume, not being one myself, that the white youth in America have a desire to rebel too. It's almost cool to do so. But against what exactly? since they represent the race that most feel is doing the oppressing. I'm guessing this is their form of counter rebellion, in a sense to stand side by side with an America that was controlled by the white race, which is, currently, losing that strong hold. Maybe?
In a way, I see it the same as white suburban kids who listen to gangsta rap and dress hood...it's rebellion against their normal everyday white society - a society that they're a part of, whether they like it or not.
About the only thing I could say with a high degree of certainty is that rebel flag wavers don't care much, if at all, whether people think they are racists.
Yeah, I guess.
They don't wave a huge flag that appears to represent a whole town. A town city rebel flag is very uninviting in my opinion.
You would think, but it was in Tampa, FL, specifically Ybor City, which, if you've ever been, is a party town where balck clubs, gay clubs and latin clubs are all side by side. Maybe those waving the flag did so in protest to the liberal insanity found in Ybor. I don't know.
For my part I agree that the meaning of a flag is entirely subjective. With each persons view changing, depending on where they were born, personal beliefs, etc. As far as flags that sympolizes rebellion. Why would anyone choose the confederate flag when there so many cooler ones out there. I perfer the Gonzales flag or the Gadsden flag. They just look much more like you are trying to piss off the establishment.
'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat' The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
To me, the Confederate flag is a symbol of rcial oppression, involuntary servitude, crimes against humanity, and treason. When I see people celebrating their "Confederate heritage" with the flag, all I can think about is "these people are actually celebrating a society whose primary defining characteristics were slavery based on race and treason, effectively celebrating crimes against humanity and war against the United States. Considering these are typically conservatives in the 'I love America, you liberals stop hating America, America FUCK YEAH' crowd, this is particularly confusing, as loving America and celebrating those who committed treason against it and broke the Union appear to be mutually exclusive."
Not being raised or having lived in the south for a good amount of time, I don't really see it the same. Living in Miami you're not really ever explosed to people waving that flag in the manner that you explain it, and when I did see it. it was in things like music and art. It wasn't until later that I found out the whole other meaning about southern "pride," etc. But I clearly see your point and understand why you feel that way.
Let me ask though, how do you react when you see someone wearing a Che Guevara shirt? (Which ironically enough is popular in the hip hop world to wear.)
To me it's insulting that it is sold without remorse. I've seen it a Hot Topic, and even at Target. But I get that someone black kid from Baltimore isn't going to see it that way or even know who Che really was. So I don't let my personal issues with the shirt affect someone elses clothing decisions.
I find it absolutely appalling that people frequently wave the confederate flag into the faces of black and latino people while proclaiming that they're actually referring to rebellion to the government.
I agree; in that situation the intent is clear. But as a bumper stick, do you still find it offensive?
The same thing can't be said about the confederates (the descendants of the confederacy) and the descendants of the nazis.
Ignoring the Nazi part since it's off topic, you don't think there have been groups of the decendants of Confederates that have taken steps to heal those old wounds and apologize in the same way that the US has "apologized" to native Americans? It's not that big of an apology made to native Americans after all.
In fact, the Sons of Confederate Veterans protest against the KKK and their use of the flag, and also their use of Confederate park to have Klan rallies.
So can't the same be said for them as with the native American apologist?
quote:
Was Lincoln’s proclamation freeing the slaves worthy of the praise it has received?
No... In his second inaugural message, while professing, malice to none and charity to all, he slandered the South by describing the slave owner as an incarnate demon, who did nothing but lash his slaves, without giving the least requital for their service of 250 years! The negroes were the most spoiled domestics in the world. The Southerners took the negro as a barbarian and cannibal, civilized him, supported him, clothed him, and turned him out a devout Christian.
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