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Author | Topic: Good Calories, Bad Calories, by Gary Taubes | |||||||||||||||||||||||
molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Taubes' position is perfectly clear. Please see 335.
Taubes even has a GCBC chapter called The Carbohydrate Hypothesis II: Insulin! From the first page of that chapter:
The fact that insulin increase the formation of fat has been obvious You want to talk about GCBC? Let's talk about what he says. Not what you think he says. And I would the cites that support any Taubes' quotes you choose to use. Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
You said Taubes doesn't claim that insulin causes hunger. He does. Care to discuss Taubes' position re: insulin and hunger?
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
For example. Page 391. GCBC
The insulin forces the accumulation of fat in the fat tissue and the animal overeats to compensate. This research refuted [the] notion that the VMH lesion causes overeating directly
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
On that page, Tabues does not say that insulin increases appetite or that injecting insulin increased the appetite specifically for carbs. He's presenting what others have said. Taubes is using research to support his arguments. I have posted 3 instances of his saying insulin increases hunger. If you want to discuss the science underlying his hypothesis (as he does throughout the book) then I am more than willling to discuss the science. Because that is what the book does. Discuss science.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Taubes: All carbs are bad.
P. 394
1. Carbohydrates are singularly responsible for prompting insulin secretion 2. Insulin is singularly responsible for inducing fat accumulation 3. Dietary carbohydrate are required for excess fat accumulation. Note he doesn’t say refined carbs. Just carbs. In searching Chapter 22 (The Carbohydrate Hypothesis II: Insulin) online, I see that he doesn’t qualify his use of carbohydrate with refined. In fact, Taubes uses the word refined 86 times. In a 600 page book. You seem to think that he thinks it's primarily refined carbohydrates responsible for obesity. Would you like to discuss this aspect of his book?
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
That isn't a statement by Taubes either. As I said before, Taubes is supporting his arguments using published research. Are you denying he is using research to buttress his arguments?
You do realize that page 335 presents a low carb diet as successful don't you? Message 335.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Since you insist, in his own words. GCBC p. 454. Numbers 9 & 10.
Carbs --> insulin --> fat --> hunger. Care to discuss the underlying science he uses to establish these "facts"?
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
...that insulin increases appetite doesn't ring any bells as something Taubes claim... We agree with Taubes that it is increased intake of refined carbohydrates rather than fat that is responsible for problems with obesity. Now would you like to discuss it?
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
He does not use the word refined in the prologue. Starchy, yes. Refined, no. There's a difference.
Starchy does not mean refined. And refined does not mean starchy.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Great. Let's start with Taubes' assertion that insulin increases hunger.
I've posted 4 quotes from Taubes' work that makes this claim.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
My bad.
I stand corrected.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
We agree with Taubes that it is increased intake of refined carbohydrates rather than fat that is responsible for problems with obesity. Let's start here then. P. 454 Would you agree these 10 points are a fair summary of his hypothesis re: carbs and obesity?
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
For what it's worth, here's Guyenet's e mail response to the refined v. unrefined question:
Hi [name redacted], There are many places in the book where he refers to carbohydrate as fattening without any qualifiers. For example, "the carbohydrate hypothesis" rather than "the refined carbohydrate hypothesis". If he only meant refined carbohydrates, and not unrefined carbohydrates, he did not make that clear at all in his books. There is nowhere in his books where he states that unrefined carbohydrates are not fattening; he never draws a clear distinction between refined and unrefined. What he does is suggest that refined carbohydrate is more fattening than unrefined carbohydrate. Another example is where he discussed the Massas tribe. He states that they fatten by adding carbohydrate to a low-carb diet (which was incorrect), and this caused them to gain fat. But the carbohydrate they added was unrefined red sorghum. Why would he use that example if he thought unrefined carbohydrate was not fattening?Cheers, Stephan I agree. ABE: Found one:
2. The problem is the carbohydrates in the diet, their effect on insulin secretion, and thus the hormonal regulation of homeostasisthe entire harmonic ensemble of the human body. The more easily digestible and refined the carbohydrates, the greater the effect on our health, weight, and well-being. Notice he's talking about all carbs. Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given. Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
I'm not here to defend every detail of Taubes' book, but I think he describes a reasonable hypothesis. P. 454 is a summary of his hypothesis. Numbers 5-10 deal specifically with carbs & obesity which is why I mentioned them in my previous post. For the benefit of those who don't have the book:
1. Dietary fat, whether saturated or not, is not a cause of obesity, heart disease, or any other chronic disease of civilization. 2. The problem is the carbohydrates in the diet, their effect on insulin secretion, and thus the hormonal regulation of homeostasisthe entire harmonic ensemble of the human body. The more easily digestible and refined the carbohydrates, the greater the effect on our health, weight, and well-being. 3. Sugarssucrose and high-fructose corn syrup specificallyare particularly harmful, probably because the combination of fructose and glucose simultaneously elevates insulin levels while overloading the liver with carbohydrates. 4. Through their direct effect on insulin and blood sugar, refined carbohydrates, starches and sugars are the dietary cause of coronary heart disease and diabetes. They are the most likely dietary causes of cancer, Alzheimer’s disease, and the other chronic diseases of civilization. 5. Obesity is a disorder of excess fat accumulation, not overeating, and not sedentary behavior. 6. Consuming excess calories does not cause us to grow fatter, any more than it causes a child to grow taller. Expending more energy than we consume does not lead to long term weight loss; it leads to hunger. 7. Fattening and obesity are caused by an imbalancea disequilibriumin the hormonal regulation of adipose tissue and fat metabolism. Fat synthesis and storage exceed the mobilization of fat from the adipose tissue and its subsequent oxidation. We become leaner when the hormonal regulation of the fat tissue reverses this balance. 8. Insulin is the primary regulator of fat storage. When insulin levels are elevatedeither chronically or after a mealwe accumulate fat in our fat tissue. When insulin levels fall, we release fat from our fat tissue and use it for fuel. 9. By stimulating insulin secretion, carbohydrates make us fat and ultimately cause obesity. The fewer carbohydrates we consume, the leaner we will be. 10. By driving fat accumulation, carbohydrates also increase hunger and decrease the amount of energy we expend in metabolism and physical activity. Is this a fair summary of what you find compelling about his hypothesis? If not, can you summarize his hypothesis for me?
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
A few posts back, I pointed out that Taubes quote mined some research.
1. He neglected to mention leptin. 2. He neglected to mention 81% carbohydrate intake. 3. He neglected to mention the Pima were lean on a carb diet. Since PD doesn't find this explanation satisfactory, I will rephrase. 1. The title of the paper is: Low dose leptin administration reverses effects of sustained weight-reduction on energy expenditure and circulating concentrations of thyroid hormones. He co-opted it, and other studies by the same authors, as evidence for his insulin hypothesis. In fact, he used their work 22 times and never mentioned leptin. 2. "The typical diet is 81% carbohydrate, and primarily based on sorghum, according to Taubes's own reference. Taubes states here that the typical diet is "primarily milk", therefore by inference, low in carbohydrate." Just as he did with the leptin studies, Taubes conveniently neglects to mention that which does not support his hypothesis. 3. "[The Pima diet was] high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet based on corn, beans, starchy squash, and a modest amount of gathered animal and plant foods from the forest and rivers in the area." They were lean and healthy on a high starch diet. Probably why he forgot to mention that part. It turns out I'm not the only one to notice the quote mining. For those interested, another blogger has been checking Taubes' references to see if they match the original papers. Her take down of Taubes can be found here: Guyenet v. Taubes: Thoughts on Stephan's Demolition of the Carbohydrate Hypothesis of Obesity
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