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Member (Idle past 1423 days) Posts: 1495 From: Framingham, MA, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Three Kinds of Creationists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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bridgebuilder writes: Perhaps science backs reality,... There's no perhaps about it. Science represents our best effort to understand reality.
...but perhaps not. What if science is stuck in a scenario similar to Plato's cave because it deliberately ignores the supernatural? Science will remain blissfully unaware I suppose. It's the Noble prize for whomever figures out how to scientifically study the supernatural. It isn't like there's any lack of motivation. The funny thing about the supernatural is that the more we discover about the world and universe in which we live, the fewer things are ascribed to the supernatural. The history of the supernatural is that it blossoms during periods of ignorance. Science uses evidence as the glue that connects our understanding to the actual universe. A supernatural that leaves no detectable impression on reality is the same as no supernatural at all. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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The condescending comments about how we can help you learn and so forth are bugging me, hope they're not bugging you. The learning goes both ways.
The people here know a whole heck of a lot, but no one's voice is gospel. The posts I like best are the ones that clearly state a position and then back it with evidence. This has been stated famously several different ways, but in my own words, he who was convinced without evidence has an opinion, not knowledge. --Percy
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Sorry but I see no indication of the super natural in that example, simply something yet unexplained.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
There was no answer, just word salad.
If you are saying that the way something is identified as supernatural is by someone claiming it is supernatural, then that is so open that it is meaningless, useless and worthless.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But you still have not said anything about how you investigate or identify or determine if something is supernatural as opposed to just unknown.
Even if all of the things you list did exist, what makes them supernatural as opposed to being caused by some yet unknown natural cause?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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jar writes: But you still have not said anything about how you investigate or identify or determine if something is supernatural as opposed to just unknown. But what is it that stops us studying it in either case? It is you who is claiming that supernatural entities and phenomena cannot be investigated. How do you know this?
jar writes: Even if all of the things you list did exist, what makes them supernatural as opposed to being caused by some yet unknown natural cause? The fact that they are defined as being inherently unable to be explained by natural causes because they are magical or fantastical or divine or whatever it is that people believe about them. The fact that people have been consistently wrong about this doesn't mean that "unknown" and "supernatural" are synonyms as you continue to imply. It just means people have been consistently wrong in attributing supernatural causes.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
In which case we have never studied something that really is "supernatural".
The issue is "If there really was something that was supernatural, how could we study it?" Remember, the given is that the thing really is supernatural and so our natural based tests would be ineffective.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
jar writes: In which case we have never studied something that really is "supernatural". Yet there are lots of things which are still unknown. So "unknown" and "supernatural" cannot mean the same thing can they?
jar writes: In which case we have never studied something that really is "supernatural". Most of the things once thought to be supernatural have been found not to be. Furthermore to the best of our scientific knowledge the whole idea of the the supernatural is a human construction.
jar writes: The issue is "If there really was something that was supernatural, how could we study it?" The same way we study anything else. Scientifically. The fact that science wouldn't be able to explain it doesn't mean it couldn't be investigated using the scientific method to see if is real rather than a trick (for example) does it?
jar writes: Remember, the given is that the thing really is supernatural and so our natural based tests would be ineffective. But what is it that you thinks means that tests and investigations cannot be undertaken? If magical Leprechauns actually existed we could scientifically test them couldn't we? Their magical abilities (teleportation, wish granting, etc. etc.) if genuinely supernatural would defy natural explanation and scientific understanding but that wouldn't stop us undertaking scientific investigations on these entities and their abilities would it?
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Again, what we can test is only the natural unless you can show me a method of testing the supernatural.
You can test the magical Leprechauns but I can see only two possible answers; "no, what is observed is natural" or "What is observed is unexplained". I do not see and so far no one has presented any test where the conclusion might be "Yes, that is supernatural."Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
jar writes:
Your response is too funny. There was no answer, just word salad.No, really too funny. Really, really, really funny. Actually, no - it's bollocks. jar writes:
I was not saying anything about the way something is identified as supernatural. If you are saying that the way something is identified as supernatural is by someone claiming it is supernatural, then that is so open that it is meaningless, useless and worthless.I was describing how we could study the supernatural. Forgotten what you asked? Is your memory going? Forgotten what you asked? Is your memory going?Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
jar writes: Again, what we can test is only the natural unless you can show me a method of testing the supernatural. We can scientifically investigate anything which is real and detectable can't we?
jar writes: You can test the magical Leprechauns but I can see only two possible answers; "no, what is observed is natural" or "What is observed is unexplained". But that in itself doesn't stop us investigating magical leprechauns does it? Do you now accept that, if it exists and is detectable, then it can be scientifically investigated whether supernatural or not?
jar writes: I do not see and so far no one has presented any test where the conclusion might be "Yes, that is supernatural." Concluding and investigating are not the same thing. Do you think "unknown" and "supernatural" are synonyms? If not what do you think the difference is between these two terms?If yes - How can there be things which are unknown but not supernatural?
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But you still offer no information.
You can study something that someone claims is "supernatural" and it is possible that you might determine based on those tests that it is not "supernatural", you might even end up determining that you cannot explain the subject, but what tests would show that it really was supernatural?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Unknown and Supernatural are not synonyms.
Unknown is very broad and includes everything we cannot explain. Supernatural though is a subset of unknown, things where the actual cause are not natural. We can test things and determine that they have a natural cause, that they have an unknown clause, but I can see no way we could test something and determine that it has a supernatural cause.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1534 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
then it can be scientifically investigated whether supernatural or not? Sure, except the whole idea of supernatural is that it does not adhere to the laws of physics and scientific inquiry does. Supernatural by definition is that which is beyond the natural world.
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined:
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I see there are forty posts after this one, so the discussion might have moved on and this is no longer relevant, but anyway... No, not really. Most of those posts are just jar and Panda pretending they're having a debate while they practice typing.Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung
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