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Author Topic:   Scriptural evidence that Jesus is Messiah:
jar
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Posts: 24629
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 3 of 304 (644517)
12-18-2011 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archangel
12-18-2011 3:57 PM


Let's look at them in order.
You claim that Isaiah 7:14 is a prophecy of Jesus but if you look at it in context it is obvious that it is not.

quote:
14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

15Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

16For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.


It's obvious that Isaiah is speak of what will happen immediately. Further Jesus was not named Immanuel.

So one of them down and shown to be false.

There is a bigger issue.

Scriptural support that Jesus is divine or the Messiah is about as valid as the Star Wars tales providing evidence that Darth Vader really is Luke Skywalker's father.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Archangel, posted 12-18-2011 3:57 PM Archangel has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jaywill, posted 09-20-2012 7:59 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24629
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 6 of 304 (644520)
12-18-2011 5:08 PM


Genesis 12 1-3
Genesis 12 1-3 is your next supposed prophecy.

Let's look at it.

quote:
Genesis 12

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


Sorry, nothing there related to Jesus and in fact, it is talking about Abram; note it says " 3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." It says that it is talking directly about Abram.

It's obvious that it is speaking of what will happen immediately; it is speaking about what Abram should do right then.

So two of them down and shown to be false.

There is a bigger issue.

Scriptural support that Jesus is divine or the Messiah is about as valid as the Star Wars tales providing evidence that Darth Vader really is Luke Skywalker's father.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24629
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 12 of 304 (659302)
04-14-2012 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dawn Bertot
04-14-2012 1:27 AM


Chapter and verse please.
If you think that there is even a single Old Testament prophecy that refers to Jesus can you please give us the Chapter and verse so that we can examine it in context?

AbE: To help you get started we have already covered quite a few in "Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?".

Edited by jar, : see AbE: Link toi existing thread on the topic.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 9 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-14-2012 1:27 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
jar
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Posts: 24629
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 38 of 304 (659649)
04-17-2012 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by PaulK
04-17-2012 6:46 PM


Re: First things first.
GDR posting to PaulK writes:


Instead we have a quiet movement that was not revolutionary in the historical sense, whose followers were not members of the established elite and who went quietly to the cross without establishing an army let alone winning any battles. Yet, what happened afterwards has been the root of the largest religion in the world, as far from perfect as it is.

I would say that the Gospels had very little to do with Christianity growing as it did, rather being adopted as the State religion of the biggest, baddest super power of the period, and then being adopted by the succession of super powers as their State religion was the greatest factor in that growth.

There is much to be said about the influence of wealth and power when it comes to spreading a culture.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by PaulK, posted 04-17-2012 6:46 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24629
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 66 of 304 (660589)
04-27-2012 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Dawn Bertot
04-27-2012 8:36 AM


Horse meat, nothing but horse meat.
Sorry Dawn but you have presented absolutely nothing but examples of quote mining, taking phrases out of context and misrepresentation.

I have invited you in the past and will invite you yet again to come to the thread Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus? where such claims have been examined in context and shown to be false.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-27-2012 8:36 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-29-2012 12:05 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24629
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 72 of 304 (660772)
04-29-2012 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Dawn Bertot
04-29-2012 12:05 AM


Re: Horse meat, nothing but horse meat.
You claim that Isaiah 9 refers to Jesus.

Here is the part you have quoted:

DB writes:

Isa 9 [a]Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the nations, by the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan
2 The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of deep darkness
a light has dawned.
3 You have enlarged the nation
and increased their joy;
they rejoice before you
as people rejoice at the harvest,
as warriors rejoice
when dividing the plunder.
4 For as in the day of Midians defeat,
you have shattered
the yoke that burdens them,
the bar across their shoulders,
the rod of their oppressor.
5 Every warriors boot used in battle
and every garment rolled in blood
will be destined for burning,
will be fuel for the fire.
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on Davids throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

Now let's look at it in detail. Where does that refer to Jesus? Start by showing when Jesus ruled on David's throne and over David's kingdom?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-29-2012 12:05 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Archangel, posted 04-29-2012 10:43 AM jar has responded
 Message 92 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-03-2012 1:40 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24629
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 77 of 304 (660778)
04-29-2012 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Archangel
04-29-2012 10:43 AM


Re: Horse meat, nothing but horse meat.
But I am not an unbeliever, rather a very devout Cradle Creedal Christian who is very active in the faith, have taught adult and child Sunday school, design and maintain several Christian church websites, helped found Mission and build churches and the product of education in a Christian School.

Even you admit that it is so far failed prophecy if it did refer to Jesus, and that makes it just plain silly.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Archangel, posted 04-29-2012 10:43 AM Archangel has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24629
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 78 of 304 (660779)
04-29-2012 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Panda
04-29-2012 10:49 AM


Re: Horse meat, nothing but horse meat.
Kinda. I just don't think that GOD is as picayune as folk like Archangel market it.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Panda, posted 04-29-2012 10:49 AM Panda has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24629
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 81 of 304 (660786)
04-29-2012 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Archangel
04-29-2012 12:33 PM


Re: Then you're a fraud and a poser:
Did you say "This aspect of the prophecy has not yet occurred since we haven't come to the end of this Age and entered the new Age"?

If it has not been fulfilled it is failed prophecy.

You are of course free to make any unsupported assertions about me that you want; however that does not change the facts that I am a Christian raised in the Christian tradition in a Christian home educated in a Christian school who is active in my faith and has taught both adult and children's Sunday school who has helped establish new missions and build churches and who actively designs and maintains websites for Christian churches.

Nor does it address the factual points I have raised where you simply misrepresented what the Bible actually says by taking quote mined phrases out of context.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Archangel, posted 04-29-2012 12:33 PM Archangel has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-03-2012 2:02 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24629
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 96 of 304 (661197)
05-03-2012 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Dawn Bertot
05-03-2012 1:40 AM


Re: Horse meat, nothing but horse meat.
Where does it say that Jesus sat on David's throne or ruled over David's Kingdom or even the people "Israel"?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-03-2012 1:40 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24629
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 97 of 304 (661199)
05-03-2012 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Dawn Bertot
05-03-2012 2:02 AM


Re: Then you're a fraud and a poser:
I am capable of actually reading what was written in the stories and actually capable of quoting them in context.

And unless you can show where I "deny outright his inspiration" you are simply yet again misrepresenting what I have said.

There is no need to know whether or not someone is inspired by God to tell whether or not what the person wrote is quote mining. All that is needed is to honestly read what was written.

And of course I know what the Bible says; I read what the Bible says.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-03-2012 2:02 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-05-2012 1:54 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24629
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 104 of 304 (661414)
05-05-2012 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Dawn Bertot
05-05-2012 1:54 AM


Re: Then you're a fraud and a poser:
Ok, How did you decide and what evidence can you put forward to know they are quote mining. How did you come to the evidential idea that they are not accurate in placing the prophecies in line with Jesus

I actually read the Bible, not just what some carny huckster SAYS the Bible says.

In fact, I even provided you the evidence which you refused to read it seems. There is a whole thread looking at each of the so called Old Testament prophecies of Jesus in detail, and so far not ONE has stood up to examination. The thread is called Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?.

IOWs, I have already demonstrated from a Biblical and inspiration standpoint how jesus' is setting on Davids throne. How will you demonstrate it otherwise?

Not quite true dat. What you did was post a quote from one of the snake oil salesmen making that claim, but you did not provide any supporting evidence.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-05-2012 1:54 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-05-2012 9:32 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24629
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 106 of 304 (661418)
05-05-2012 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Dawn Bertot
05-05-2012 9:32 AM


Re: Then you're a fraud and a poser:
I have already done that Dawn, in the thread I have pointed you towards several times. We looked at what the New Testament writers claimed and then looked at the full context of their quote mines and in every case we found that they misrepresented what had actually been written.

AbE:

Also you keep claiming that I use "I just don't like it" as a reason or argument. Unless you can provide a link to a post where I used that argument it is just another example of your misrepresentation and posting falsehoods.

Edited by jar, : see AbE;


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-05-2012 9:32 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-06-2012 12:22 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24629
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 112 of 304 (661471)
05-06-2012 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Dawn Bertot
05-06-2012 12:22 AM


Re: Then you're a fraud and a poser:
I provided the link to the material in "THIS" thread so I did include the evidence in this thread. In case you missed it here is the link posted once again in this thread.

Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?

Here is the OP from that thread incorporated in this thread.

quote:
In Message 83 of the thread Deconversion experiences ICDESIGN makes the claim that this is a prophecy fulfilled by Jesus.

quote:
ICDESIGN writes:

bluescat48 writes:

You make the statement about fulfilled prophesies, therefore it is up to you to back them up with evidence.

......here are just a few...

Old Testament Prophecy // New Testament Fulfillment

Isaiah 52: 13&14 // John 19:1-3
Micah 5:2 // Matthew 2:1
Isaiah 7:14 // Matthew 1: 18-21
Daniel 9:25 // Galatians 4:4
Genesis 49:10 // Luke 3:23-38
Zechariah 9:9 // Matthew 21 1-4


I'd like for us to step through the examples in order to see if any actually can be supported.

Here is the first example given.

quote:
Isaiah 52:13-14 (New International Version, 2010)

The Suffering and Glory of the Servant
13 See, my servant will act wisely[1];
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him[2]
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness

Footnotes:

1. Isaiah 52:13 Or will prosper
2. Isaiah 52:14 Hebrew you


The first question must be how those two lines relate to the context. So here is Isaiah 52 in full.

quote:
Isaiah 52 (New International Version, 2010)

Isaiah 52

1 Awake, awake, Zion,
clothe yourself with strength!
Put on your garments of splendor,
Jerusalem, the holy city.
The uncircumcised and defiled
will not enter you again.
2 Shake off your dust;
rise up, sit enthroned, Jerusalem.
Free yourself from the chains on your neck,
Daughter Zion, now a captive.

3 For this is what the LORD says:

You were sold for nothing,
and without money you will be redeemed.

4 For this is what the Sovereign LORD says:

At first my people went down to Egypt to live;
lately, Assyria has oppressed them.

5 And now what do I have here? declares the LORD.

For my people have been taken away for nothing,
and those who rule them mock,
declares the LORD.
And all day long
my name is constantly blasphemed.
6 Therefore my people will know my name;
therefore in that day they will know
that it is I who foretold it.
Yes, it is I.

7 How beautiful on the mountains
are the feet of those who bring good news,
who proclaim peace,
who bring good tidings,
who proclaim salvation,
who say to Zion,
Your God reigns!
8 Listen! Your watchmen lift up their voices;
together they shout for joy.
When the LORD returns to Zion,
they will see it with their own eyes.
9 Burst into songs of joy together,
you ruins of Jerusalem,
for the LORD has comforted his people,
he has redeemed Jerusalem.
10 The LORD will lay bare his holy arm
in the sight of all the nations,
and all the ends of the earth will see
the salvation of our God.

11 Depart, depart, go out from there!
Touch no unclean thing!
Come out from it and be pure,
you who carry the articles of the LORDs house.
12 But you will not leave in haste
or go in flight;
for the LORD will go before you,
the God of Israel will be your rear guard.

The Suffering and Glory of the Servant

13 See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness
15 so he will sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.


As you can see, What Isaiah is talking about is Jerusalem, and his audience is Judah, and it is the subject of Judah's future that is the big question.

The period was when Judah sided with Assyria and Syria in their conquest of Israel and Samaria and acted as an ally and almost vassal state. Isaiah was speaking encouraging Judah to change allegiance and oppose Assyria by an alliance with Egypt.

So that is the setting.

Next, look to see if there is anything in the two verses that is really unique and so would be supported by Jesus or imply that Isaiah was even thinking of Jesus?

Well, not that I can see.

Let's look at ICDESIGN's claimed support of fulfillment?

quote:
John 19:1-3 (New International Version, 2010)

John 19

Jesus Sentenced to Be Crucified

1 Then Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged. 2 The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe 3 and went up to him again and again, saying, Hail, king of the Jews! And they slapped him in the face.


I certainly don't see support there for a suffering servant acting wisely, or being lifted up, or exalted, or being so disfigured that he was not recognizable as human.

So, unless someone can provide better support than ICDESIGN did I would have to say that this prophecy is not even about Jesus and if it was, it was not fulfilled.


The point though is that modern Christians are misrepresenting the Bible when they claim that the passage from John refers to the passage from Isaiah or that Isaiah was referring to Jesus.

And again, you fail to show that I ever used "I just don't like it" as an argument.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-06-2012 12:22 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-08-2012 7:08 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24629
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 117 of 304 (661616)
05-08-2012 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Dawn Bertot
05-08-2012 7:08 PM


Re: Then you're a fraud and a poser:
I do not just claim that the authors of the various New Testament writings are quote mining, I demonstrate it by including the context that was written in the Old Testament writings.

That the author of John makes a claim is not evidence of anything except that the author made that claim. To find out if the claim can be supported one must actually look at what was written in the Old Testament story, which I did and even quoted for you. Scriptural support that a New Testament author claimed that prophecies in the Old Testament refer to Jesus is about as valid as the Star Wars tales providing evidence that Darth Vader really is Luke Skywalker's father.

Inspiration is irrelevant of course, what is relevant is what they wrote and what they quote mined when seen in context. The writer may well have been inspired, bad burritos can do that.

You of course are free to believe anything you want, advance any idea you wish, the question is whether or not you can support those ideas, those beliefs with evidence.

Once again I refer you to Message 3, Message 6 and Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus? where you will find actual evidence and not just fantasy and supposition.

AbE: by the way, the unknown author of 2Peter is not one of the Prophets.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-08-2012 7:08 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-08-2012 7:28 PM jar has responded

  
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