Dinker's Homosexuality Thread

(moved from http://EvC Forum: Evolution and Probability -->EvC Forum: Evolution and Probability):Hey Rrhain,Firstly let me say sorry. I do not wish to alienate the gay commmunity from christianity (and I couldn't if I wanted to - Thank God!). I am delighted that you have the joy of christ in your life. The main reason I brought up the subject was due to comments from crashfrog. But let me try and justify my view at least a little. So you don't do to me what you possibly believed I was doing to you.I said:

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In general the gay christian community have got round all the biblical texts by just disowning it.

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- this was an inappropriate comment, entirely based on my own personal experience. I've not met a gay christian who has given me reasoning that would indicate that homosexual (As I understand it... which apparently is very little) activity is not a sin or that it is glorifying to God.You say:

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It can't possibly be because they understand the Bible better than you. No, it has to be because they are deliberately ignoring it.

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I have never claimed to be a great theologian. So I would be delighted if you would in christian brotherly style show me the errors of my ways (rebuke me - as is every christians duty in love). I will not insult your intelligence by telling you which verses I would like explained - I'm sure you've covered the material many times. Could you show me your reasoning? Could you tell me what homosexuality is as you understand it?I would like to pick up on one or two things though. Cause I think (maybe totally foolishly) that I may have a point. You say you "They are gay. God made them that way" - thus they are exactly as God intended and thus not sinning. So basically you believe I was saying that you shouldn't be who you are - denile of self - how horrible! I beg of you not to believe such a thing of me. That was never what I intended and here's why...I'm going to be a little bold here and say you are not what you do. We are both from societies in which what you do defines who you are. When we are born we have genetic dispositions to all kinds of things. The best you can be born with is an inclination to do something (Strong though it maybe). People are born with inclinations to do all sorts of things that are wrong (and right). Pyschopaths are born with a disposition to kill - should we allow them to kill people because they were made that way by God? Paedophiles are born with a sexual disposition towards being attracted to children - do we condone sexual relationships between adults and children cause God made them that way (Surely we are stopping them being who they are if we don't)? Or at least not tell them off when they exercise their right to be themself as God made them? What about those who have inclinations towards beastiality? Surely we should allow them to have sex with appropriately sized animals. They're likely to not even be hurting the animal (probably pleasuring the animal!). Surely we have no reason to stop them using their God given sexuality...I can't help feel your "God made me this way" argument leaves something to be desired. I would quite literally be delighted if you could prove the error in my argument. When I've asked people about it before they just got angry with me or just said it was different without telling me how. I do realise that there is a consent issue involved (on the first 2 examples at least) which makes it differ. But I'm speaking of the motivation here. Does being born with an inclination to do something make acting on it right and God given?In my view, sexuality does not define who you are! It is important, yes. But it isn't who you are! What would you think of me if I walked round saying "Hi, my names Dinker and I'm a heterosexual". You'd probably think I was a bit weird and I doubt you'd think that fact had any bearing on who I was. Yet you seem to believe it is a major defining factor. I could be wrong on this. Please show me I am - whenever I discuss issues this close to anothers heart I feel very much like I'm playing with matches.When I said Paul puts homosexuality (and I mean this referring to sexual acts/lusting in homosexuality) on a plain with greed I'm referring to:"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." Corinthians 6:9-10.He goes onto say in verse 11:"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."(NIV - maybe a source of error!)He said you were once like that - you gave it up when you got to know Jesus - you don't need it any more.Having a homosexual inclination is not wrong - you cannot help it. Acting upon such an inclination (Lusting (just wrong in general) after the same sex, Sexual acts with same sex) (And then saying it is wonderous and beautiful) is wrong from what is in the bible - as I understand it.At what point are you homosexual? I apparently have an inclination towards playing the guitar. At what point from starting playing was I a guitarist? Or was I one before I started playing?This is why I say homosexuality is a sin - You have to do homosexual acts to be homosexual (You have to play guitar to be a guitarist). But in some ways I would rather it wouldn't be. Just so I didn't have to do such things as this. Believe it or not I don't enjoy this. I don't enjoy being screamed at for holding such a view which I believe to be right. Can you show me that I am wrong so that I need not pointlessly rebuke another christian over this issue?Lastly:

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Right. "You know, you're going to hell." Doesn't seem to be a very good basis for a friendship.

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That is not the basis of our relationship. Just as the fact that I believe all my non-christians friends are going to hell is not basis for my relationship with them. I'm am deeply saddened that they do not know the joy I have in Christ and that ultimately them will be seperated from the love of God and God himself. I found your comment was quite hurtful or though maybe not unprovoked...I hope I have successfully given across at least a partly justified view here that you may address it justly. I am sorry we had to meet on these circumstances.'ll be praying for both of us over this!
God Bless.I await your reply.

i'm not versed enough with the bible to have a discussion about whether the bible condemns homosexuality or not... but i would like to address this part: false analogy: homosexuals perform the homosexual actions with another (or other) consenting adult(s) in private. They should be allowed to act the way God made them because what are they doing wrong (aside from possible going against God's will, which leads one to wonder why he made them that way... is he trying to play some kind of joke? (or the more likely response, test their faith?))? The above examples take away the basic rights of other humans, and harm non consenting people, while the actions of homosexuals simply do not.

Um, Dinker? I don't recall saying anywhere that I was gay or Christian. What on earth makes you think that I am? Just because I disagree with your interpretation of what the Bible has to say about homosexuality doesn't mean that I am gay or Christian.

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I've not met a gay christian who has given me reasoning that would indicate that homosexual (As I understand it... which apparently is very little) activity is not a sin or that it is glorifying to God.

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To be honest, I doubt you've ever talked to any about it.

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So I would be delighted if you would in christian brotherly style show me the errors of my ways

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(*sigh*)I've got a better idea: You tell me why you think the Bible says anything about homosexuality as we understand it and we'll go from there.

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I'm going to be a little bold here and say you are not what you do.

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So what you're saying is that all you need is a good gay lover? A six-pack will get you on your back?

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People are born with inclinations to do all sorts of things that are wrong ... Psychopaths ... Paedophiles ... bestiality

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BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!Oh, that's just precious, Dinker! Because two people in a loving relationship is just so much like killing people and abuse.I'm reminded of the idiots out there that say that if we allow people of the same sex to get married, the next thing you know we'll be letting people get married to a car. Because, you know, that is the most logical next step...marrying a person leads directly to marrying a car.

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What would you think of me if I walked round saying "Hi, my names Dinker and I'm a heterosexual".

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But you do. All the time. You may not realize that you're doing it, but you do. Are you married? What do you think that ring on your finger means? Have a picture of your loved one on your desk? When a coworker asks you what you did last weekend, do you ever find yourself saying something like, "My wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend and I went to..."? Do you hold hands with your loved one? Give your loved one a kiss and a hug goodbye at the airport or train station? Have you ever said, "Hang on...I need to call my X?"You declare your sexuality constantly, Dinker. You just don't notice it when you do it.

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"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." Corinthians 6:9-10.

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You asked for me to let you know when you have erred. Well, here is one."Homosexual offenders"? Why does your Bible contain the word "homosexual" in it? There was no word in Greek that would translate as "homosexual." Don't tell me...let me guess...you're using the NIV, aren't you? You do realize that the NIV is one of the worst translations of the Bible around for precisely this reason. It starts with the dogma (homosexuality is bad) and then translates the text to fit the dogma, even when it doesn't.The word your translation has claimed to be "homosexual offenders" is the Greek word "arsenokoitai." This is a word that Paul simply made up and it appears exactly twice in the Bible. It is a combination of the words for "male" and for "prostitute."It literally does not mean what you think it means.

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At what point are you homosexual?

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Why don't we turn the question around? At what point are you whatever sexuality you are?

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This is why I say homosexuality is a sin

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It may be.But nothing in the Bible indicates that it is.

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But in some ways I would rather it wouldn't be. Just so I didn't have to do such things as this.

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Are you trying to tell us something, Dinker?After all, studies show that the people who are most vehemently opposed to homosexuality tend to be closeted homosexuals, themselves.

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Can you show me that I am wrong so that I need not pointlessly rebuke another christian over this issue?

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There are already many threads about this.Better still, why don't you tell me why you think the Bible has something to say about homosexuality as we understand it.

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Right. "You know, you're going to hell." Doesn't seem to be a very good basis for a friendship.

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That is not the basis of our relationship.

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But that's the underlying current, though. You even say so, yourself: So do tell us how these "friends" of yours take to knowing that you think they're going to hell?

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I'll be praying for both of us over this!

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Don't bother. I don't need your assistance. I am certain that god is well aware of what is going on.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!