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Author Topic:   Bears
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 1 of 18 (669898)
08-05-2012 1:52 PM


In second amendment thread petrophysics1 gave what I think is very dangerous advice for those traveling in bear country.
Message 41

As it is off topic there I decided to post my response here.

As he explained it if they try to run fast down a very steep hill they will go head over heals.

Myth. Anyone with actual experience will attest to that
Source
I can find many more sources if needed.

Your idea of running down a steep hill seems kind of meaningless as most places you run into a bear you are not going to have a steep hill within a distance where you can get to a safe place before the bear can reach you. Your advice seems to invite people to be hurt or killed.

The generally accepted advice is bear species dependent. If it is a grizzly or or polar bear and a predation attack lie down and play dead. If it is a non-predation attack or an attack from a black Bear fight back.

I would trust state and provincial DNR's and fish and game dept's over some dude.

As for northern Ontario unless you are in the Hudson and James bay area all you are going to run into are black bears. There is never a situation in which running from a black bear is the best course of action. There are no grizzleys in Ontario. I'd like to know where in northern Ontario where one could use your advice of running down a steep hill. I have spent a fair amount of time in northern Ontario, wabikimi and further north, and do not know of any steep hills that would suffice. In the vast majority of bear encounters your steep hills just do not exist. Also, shooting a bear in Ontario also is not an option. Carrying a shotgun or sidearm on a fishing trip or canoe trip is not allowed. Still in all my times in BWCA, Quetico, Wabikimi and elsewhere I have had a few encounters with black bears. In none of those circumstances was I not able to get the bear to move off without it resorting to an attack. Yes I have moved on to different campsites, but this seems to be a better idea than to invite another encounter.

Oh btw a horse is not a bear and "The Edge" is just a movie..


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


Replies to this message:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2795
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 2 of 18 (669900)
08-05-2012 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Theodoric
08-05-2012 1:52 PM


Myth. Anyone with actual experience will attest to that
Source
I can find many more sources if needed

Yea we have the same myth well almost the same not run directly down but diagonally down a steep hil making the bear tumble down or whatever. Me thinks who ever thought about this never saw how agile bears are. We have brown bares in my country and a whole lot of them because they are semi protected and the government cant get it trough its thick scull that not enough are being shot off every year.

As for being the fucking only person who lives amidst a Forrest while my countrymen live among vineyards i can dish out a bit of advice that work on brown bears.

1. If a brown bear seas you stay still 99.9% of the time it will walk away. the other 0.1% of the time its probably a female and her cubs are behind you so you are screwed.

2. If you are walking in a bear infested region talk loudly or sing or whatever if you are alone the bear will avoid confrontation so you wont even see it and your pants will remain fecal matter free

3. If you crashed your car into a bear cub drive away fast do not exit do not look around DRIVE AWAY. and then call the hunters to make sure its dead. You dont i repeat YOU DONT want to be anywhere near the cub when the mother realizes what happened to it, iv seen a a brown bear mother rip of a tree stump and chasing a car that hit a cub of hers.

4. Dont try to outrun a bear or at least not our bears i clocked one at 55Kmh while he was running alongside my car

5. dont try to fight a bear it only works in movies and commercials

in real life you will be lucky if you survive or keep your lower jaw.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

Click if you dare!


This message is a reply to:
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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1859
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009


Message 3 of 18 (669901)
08-05-2012 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Theodoric
08-05-2012 1:52 PM


My bear story
A few years back, more than I'd care to recall now, my son, Owen, was working for the National Park Service at King's Canyon National Park, California. Their job was primarily to keep the hiking trails open for hiker tourists. This involved a lot of long multi-day hikes and chain-saw activity that would then settle down for each night somewhere in the Park. One night, while they were all asleep, a bear came into their camp and found the metal food box. The bear managed to loosen it off its mooring and started dragging it away. Owen woke up and looked out of his tent and saw what was happening. He gave a yell, and another, but nobody else in the camp seemed to move. So he jumps up and starts giving chase after the bear. He follows the bear, yelling at him all the time like he was taught at base camp. The bear ignores him and keeps dragging the box away. Owen follows him out into a clearing field and continues. Somewhere across this field, the bear stops. He turns around to Owen following him and drops the chain. Then he erupts into a full charge on Owen. Owen has learned that, for these kind of bears, you must remain absolutely still. And although every nerve in his body is screaming "RUN RUN RUN!!!", he holds his ground, motionless. The bear skids to a halt inches away and regards him. He reaches back and unleashes a swipe of the paw that is designed to miss by 2 inches from Owen's nose. Owen holds his ground. The bear then settles back. By then the rest of the campsite has awakened and, armed with metal cooking pans and spoons, comes bursting out into the field. The bear runs off into the woods. The food is saved. Who is my son? I ask myself, in sheer incredulous admiration. I am continuing to stockpile more Owen stories, as the Legend of Owen transpires.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2177 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 4 of 18 (669906)
08-05-2012 6:49 PM


keep shooting.
if five .357 magnum hallow point rounds don't stop the beast then I guess he won and gets to eat me.

in the OP's quoted message, from the other thread, there was mention of not being able to carry in national parks nbut this is incorrect, we have been allowed to carry in national parks since 2010 (not that it really changed who carried in the parks).


Replies to this message:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2795
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 5 of 18 (669908)
08-05-2012 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Artemis Entreri
08-05-2012 6:49 PM


Re: keep shooting.
if five .357 magnum hallow point rounds don't stop the beast then I guess he won and gets to eat me.

The typical procedure when you shoot a brown bear in my country is after you think its dead you wait 30 minutes just in case, then you check it out.

Our bears are maby not the biggest

400 KG or 880 pounds
and 1,8-2 meters tall 5ft 107⁄8in 6ft 63⁄4in

but you really dont want to piss one off

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

Click if you dare!


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 6 of 18 (669913)
08-05-2012 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Artemis Entreri
08-05-2012 6:49 PM


Re: keep shooting.
if five .357 magnum hallow point rounds don't stop the beast then I guess he won and gets to eat me.

There is rarely a need to shoot a bear unless you are hunting it. In a bear encounter in which you have incited the bear to attack I highly doubt you are going to get off 5 effective shots.

Also, your choice of ammo shows you are either a poser or just not real smart. Any idea what that hollow point is going to do when it hits that bear? Didn't think so. I don't think 5 .357 hollow points are going to stop a bear of any size. Ever spend much time in the woods?

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-05-2012 6:49 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-06-2012 2:38 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 7 of 18 (669914)
08-05-2012 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Artemis Entreri
08-05-2012 6:49 PM


Where did I say this?
in the OP's quoted message, from the other thread, there was mention of not being able to carry in national parks nbut this is incorrect, we have been allowed to carry in national parks since 2010 (not that it really changed who carried in the parks).

It has been pointed out that you are not referring to what I said. Still cannot find where this was said.

Edited by Theodoric, : Confused by what poster is saying


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-05-2012 6:49 PM Artemis Entreri has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


(2)
Message 8 of 18 (669926)
08-06-2012 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Theodoric
08-05-2012 9:41 PM


Re: Where did I say this?
You linked to Message 41, where we find:

petrophysics1 writes:

With bears it is best to do what Peachy said in "The Man Who Would Be King"...."brass it out Danny". Don't run, open fire (however in National Parks you can't walk around with a gun)

Chaoticskunk didn't say you said it. He's referring to the message you linked to.


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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2177 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


(1)
Message 9 of 18 (669934)
08-06-2012 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Theodoric
08-05-2012 9:22 PM


Re: keep shooting.
There is rarely a need to shoot a bear unless you are hunting it. In a bear encounter in which you have incited the bear to attack I highly doubt you are going to get off 5 effective shots.

I see bears every year, and I have never shot them once, (unless shooting them with a camera counts).

worry about your own marksmanship and I will worry about mine.

Also, your choice of ammo shows you are either a poser or just not real smart.

hello I am Choaticskunk, and I am brand new around here, guessing by your tone and how you are responding to me, you must be the anoying name calling local TROLL. I would like to say it is a pleasure to meet you but it is not.

I am not a real big fan of people like you on message boards, please understand if i totally ignore you and your ignorant ways.

Edited by Chaoticskunk, : No reason given.

Edited by Chaoticskunk, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2177 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 10 of 18 (669935)
08-06-2012 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by AdminPD
08-06-2012 7:28 AM


Re: Where did I say this?
thank you very much. Learning the ins and outs of this site is still something I am currently doing.

Is there a protocol for me to report name callers like Theo here, or any trolls I may run into, I know this behavior is against the site rules.


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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 11 of 18 (669936)
08-06-2012 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Artemis Entreri
08-06-2012 2:38 PM


Re: keep shooting.
LOL lets look at what you originally posted before you edited it. You might not know but a poster can get responses automatically emailed to them.

chaos writes:

me writes:

Any idea what that hollow point is going to do when it hits that bear? Didn't think so. I don't think 5 .357 hollow points are going to stop a bear of any size. Ever spend much time in the woods?

roflmfao who is this ass?

And you want to lecture me on namecalling?

I notice you didn't answer the question. You might want to research effective .357 ammo for bears before you attempt to save yourself with a .357 and hollowpoints.

Lets see what people that know guns have to say.

quote:
Hollow points are not typically recommended for larger wild animals as they may not penetrate deep enough to hit a vital organ. Knock them down? Sure. Piss them off? You bet.

When in bear country, magnum is the key word. While a 10 or 12 gauge slug would be great as would many rifles, they are not practical to carry. For bear country you would want a deep penetration round in a minimum of 357 Magnum, 10mm, 41 Magnum, but preferably 44 Magnum, 454 Casull, 460, 480 Ruger, 500SW. We also want the heaviest and fastest hard cast round we can find for penetration. This will give the best odds should a defense be needed. Something to consider, even in these larger calibers. Tests will show that less than 60% of Brown bears are stopped with handguns, and when successful it took at least four shots to stop the charging bear. I think it's quite a feat to be able to deliver a well placed shot into a charging bear, when fear, adrenaline and flashbacks of life are throbbing in your veins. Perhaps a more effective solution exists?

Alternatively, 97% of bears are stopped with a 9oz. can of bear spray. Comparing the percentages, a firearm should actually be carried as a second line of defense should the bear spray prove ineffective. Yes that's right, Bear Spray. A lot of people react very weird when they here this. The ignorant ones will swear up and down that this can not be true, as any handgun is far better than pepper spray. This is because uneducated people think that a handgun is a death ray and shooting anything will deem you victorious. Do not believe these people, the statistics do not lie. When someone states something that starts with, "I think, ...." do yourself a favor and dismiss the claim immediately. "I think" is a huge gamble for something as important as your own life. There is no need to "think" you are correct, when the answers can be found with a simple google search. I am a believer in math, so "I know" that statistically the odds or survival will favor me should I choose the Bear Spray. Remember that pepper spray will be a hell of a lot more effective on a bear than a human. Why? Because their nose is wet. Smell is the bears sharpest sense. Scientists believe a bear can easily smell a carcass over 18 miles away. Shooting Bear Spray at a bear is the equivalent of you shooting it up your nose and into your sinuses. Moreover, it is a free country and people can use whatever stick, hand grenade or advice they choose, but heed this advice that was given to me by a friend who lived in Alaska. "If you are not going to carry Bear Spray along with your handgun, be sure you file down your front sights as smooth as possible. This way it won't hurt as much when the bear takes it from you and shoves it up your ass."



Source

worry about your own marksmanship and I will worry about mine.

Did you read the bolded part?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-06-2012 2:38 PM Artemis Entreri has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 2093 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 12 of 18 (669937)
08-06-2012 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Theodoric
08-06-2012 3:21 PM


Re: keep shooting.
LOL.... I was just getting ready to post a bit of advice about bear spray. I would recommend a can of Bear Spray as a must for anyone who hikes back-country and can't carry a sidearm for whatever reason.

I would choose a double action revolver, Ruger Redhawk maybe, shooting a full metal jacketed round. I would choose a double action revolver because if I hit a misfire then another pull of the trigger is all I need to clear it. FMJ round for the penetration.


A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
― Edward R. Murrow

"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury


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AdminModulous
Administrator (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 13 of 18 (669938)
08-06-2012 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Artemis Entreri
08-06-2012 2:44 PM


Is there a protocol for me to report name callers like Theo here, or any trolls I may run into, I know this behavior is against the site rules.

Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0


This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 14 of 18 (669939)
08-06-2012 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by fearandloathing
08-06-2012 3:38 PM


Spray, spray and spray again
FMJ's prob are not a great choice either. Better penetration than the Hollow point, but more of a chance of ricochet off of bone and other hard parts. A flat nose, hard cast round is probably the best choice. It should give good penetration before it expands.

FMJ's tend to be a cheap round. Since they are not made to expand you are going to probably get inconsistent and ineffective performance when it does hit something like a bear. You might get some rounds expanding, others might pass right through(thus you lose all the energy) if you dont make a good body shot.

I want to make sure everyone understands that all of these rounds will kill the bear. A bear taking 4+ rounds from a .357 is going to die. It is the damage it can do to you before it dies that necessitates the use of the correct round if you are in one of those EXTREMELY rare situations when you have to shoot a bear for self defense.

Also, hunting a bear is vastly different than shooting a bear in self defense. In hunting the shooting is controlled, thought out and analytical(at least it should be). In self defense the shooting is frenzied with adrenaline spiked. It is very difficult to make a good shot when adrenaline is spiked and you are shitting your pants.

Watch some of the Olympic shooting events to get a sense of how important relaxation is in making an accurate shot.

Bear spray is always the first and best choice. Even if you can carry a sidearm the spray is the best choice.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


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 Message 12 by fearandloathing, posted 08-06-2012 3:38 PM fearandloathing has not yet responded

    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2792
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 15 of 18 (669941)
08-06-2012 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Theodoric
08-05-2012 1:52 PM


Bears aka..Alaskan neck ties.
Theodoric writes:

The generally accepted advice is bear species dependent. If it is a grizzly or or polar bear and a predation attack lie down and play dead. If it is a non-predation attack or an attack from a black Bear fight back.

In Alaska it is not consider bad form to defecate in ones britches.

*I use to live in Wasilla

Edited by 1.61803, : add *


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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