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Author Topic:   Wealth Distribution in the USA
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 401 of 531 (700913)
06-09-2013 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Straggler
06-09-2013 5:41 AM


Estimating Economic Benefit
Get past that straw man and you'll see that estimating the economic benefit a business derives from different roles can be estimated by assessing the economic impact of that work not being done.
Each step in the production process of a finished good or service presumably adds some value to the good or service. Each step is also presumably essential.
The problem with your method of estimation is that it is very likely that the removal of any one step (or role) will result in no good or service, leaving us to concludeerroneouslythat such step was responsible for 100% of the economic benefit provided by that product. Obviously this is nonsense.
To really see the impact that each step has on the good or service, you have to look at the selling price of that good or service before that step and after that step. That is, the cost of the input and the price of the output. That is how we figure out the benefit of a certain role to the good or service it helps produce.
Your method cannot work, because removing any step in the process leaves us without the good or service we want and causes us to conclude that every step individually contributes 100% of the economic benefit; which is clearly nonsense.
Jon
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2013 5:41 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2013 1:37 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 402 of 531 (700914)
06-09-2013 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by Straggler
06-09-2013 5:44 AM


Re: Evidence
Don't forget that McDonald's has a hefty customer base of low-wage earners.
A universal increase in minimum wage might just result in an increased demand for sloppy cheeseburgers and soggy fries.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2013 5:44 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 423 of 531 (701107)
06-11-2013 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by Straggler
06-11-2013 1:37 PM


Re: Estimating Economic Benefit
Jon writes:
Each step in the production process of a finished good or service presumably adds some value to the good or service.
Not in utility terms.
But we're not talking about utility termsat least we shouldn't be. What matters is selling price; selling price is the benefit to the company of producing some good/service; it is the 'value' as considered by the company.
quote:
Note that economic value is not the same as market price. If a consumer is willing to buy a good, it implies that the customer places a higher value on the good than the market price. The difference between the value to the consumer and the market price is called "consumer surplus". It is easy to see situations where the actual value is considerably larger than the market price.
Value in the most basic sense can be referred to as "Real Value" or "Actual Value." This is the measure of worth that is based purely on the utility derived from the consumption of a product or service. Utility derived value allows products or services to be measured on outcome instead of demand or supply theories that have the inherent ability to be manipulated. Illustration: The real value of a book sold to a student who pays $50.00 at the cash register for the text and who earns no additional income from reading the book is essentially zero. However; the real value of the same text purchased in a thrift shop at a price of $0.25 and provides the reader with an insight that allows him or her to earn $100,000.00 in additional income is $100,000.00.
I've said this in another thread; and while it's all good and true it is also completely irrelevant here.
Jon writes:
Each step is also presumably essential.
All essential steps are required to derive any value at all in terms of utility from the good or service.
To derive utility, yes, but not to derive a selling price. Let's consider a very simple example: A man purchases a block of wood for $10. He then asks someone with a hammer and chisel to shape the block of wood into a carving that sells for $50. The value our wood carver adds to the product is $40the selling price of the output minus the selling price (cost) of the input.
What utility he adds is, of course, irrelevant; the benefit he provides for the original purchaserhis 'value' to the purchaserof the block of wood is the increased selling price he creates by reshaping the wood.
What is the ‘real value’ to the business of the labour that is being withheld by the striking workers?
Who cares? Businesses don't exist to create 'real value'. They exist to make money. A business without any income that produces the cure for cancer will fail; a business with positive net income that produces condiment-sized packets of airworthless crapwill succeed.
The 'real value' of the good/service being produced is irrelevant to the company in determining whether additional inputs (which is what labor is) are justified by their contribution to overall income.
The book in the example above can be said to have utility worth of $100,000.00 not because the author, the book binder, the printer, the bookshop owner etc. etc. etc. each added a calculable percentage that adds up to 100. That isn't how utility works.
Again, who cares? We aren't interested in utility to the consumer. We are interested in the selling price of the final productthe benefit to the company.
What is the ‘real value’ to the business of the labour that is being withheld by the striking workers?
No one cares about 'real value'. We are talking about money and only money.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2013 1:37 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2013 5:32 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 435 of 531 (701162)
06-12-2013 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by Straggler
06-12-2013 5:32 AM


Re: Estimating Economic Benefit
You're wrong. The value in terms of utility is irrelevant to the company. The only thing that matters labor-wise is the selling price of their goods/services with labor versus without it.
Companies don't ultimately care about the utility of their products. Companies don't ultimately care about the economic benefit they offer the world.
Companies only care about income and expense. The expense of labor must be justified by the creation of income.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2013 5:32 AM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 436 by Percy, posted 06-12-2013 3:56 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 437 of 531 (701178)
06-12-2013 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by Percy
06-12-2013 3:56 PM


Re: Estimating Economic Benefit
Where's your position on all this?
Do companies ever consider the revenue generating capacity of a particular job compared to the market rate for that job when deciding whether to fill it or not?
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Percy, posted 06-12-2013 3:56 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by Percy, posted 06-12-2013 5:08 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 440 of 531 (701186)
06-12-2013 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by Percy
06-12-2013 5:08 PM


Re: Estimating Economic Benefit
But I'm not asking you about all that.
I'm just asking you whether you think companies ever consider the revenue generating capacity of a particular job compared to the market rate for that job when deciding whether to fill it or not.
Do they?
Don't they?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Percy, posted 06-12-2013 5:08 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by Percy, posted 06-12-2013 8:34 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 445 of 531 (701193)
06-12-2013 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 442 by Percy
06-12-2013 8:34 PM


Re: Estimating Economic Benefit
I'm not talking about deciding wages. I'm talking about deciding whether to fill a position or not.
Do companies ever consider a job's impact on revenue when making this decision?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by Percy, posted 06-12-2013 8:34 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by Percy, posted 06-12-2013 11:30 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied
 Message 447 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2013 3:49 AM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 490 of 531 (701602)
06-21-2013 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Coyote
06-21-2013 9:25 PM


Re: Let's look at the reality of "big" government.
What a ridiculous and simplistically stupid article.
Government finance is much more than just taking from one person to give to another.
And anyone basing their understanding of government spending on a line-dancing video is obviously coming up short on real evidence to support their position.
So again...

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Coyote, posted 06-21-2013 9:25 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by Coyote, posted 06-21-2013 10:16 PM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 495 of 531 (701609)
06-22-2013 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 494 by Coyote
06-21-2013 11:28 PM


Re: Let's look at the reality of "big" government.
Try not paying taxes and see what happens.
How about you just tell us.
And we'll tell you if you're making it up or not.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by Coyote, posted 06-21-2013 11:28 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by Coyote, posted 06-22-2013 12:41 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 507 of 531 (712568)
12-05-2013 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 506 by Percy
12-05-2013 8:31 AM


Re: Fast Food Strikes and the Minimum Wage
Whatever are we to do?
Cut CEO pay and stop pretending like the cost burden of running a society must always fall on the backs of the lowest-paid, hardest-working citizens.
Unless we actually address the real problem with the economy, nothing will get better in the end.
Those who have more will have to accept less,
Of course not, because what they rape from the American people in terms of low wages they will simply rape from the American people in terms of high prices.
As long as raping is legal, raping will continue to happen.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Percy, posted 12-05-2013 8:31 AM Percy has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 510 of 531 (712604)
12-05-2013 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 508 by Straggler
12-05-2013 10:50 AM


Re: Fast Food Strikes and the Minimum Wage
If the market rate for certain types of labour doesn't supply a living wage should the state effectively subsidise those industries which rely on that labour by providing their employees with the shortfall?
That's how it works now. But it could be different.
Should our taxes subsidise the employment costs of McDonalds Corp or Walmart or whoever because 'the market rate' they pay the employees on which their business depends is too low for those employees to actually live on?
The present system is something like this. But it could be different.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2013 10:50 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2013 12:20 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
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