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Author Topic:   I don't believe in God, I believe in Gravity
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 88 of 693 (709846)
10-30-2013 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Straggler
10-30-2013 1:08 PM


Straggler writes:
... the set of observations of gravitational effects available to you is so much greater than was available to those at the time the bible was written.
Coca-Cola is much more available to me than it was to Moses. That doesn't mean I drink more of it than he did.
Straggler writes:
So actually it's very relevant to the question of comparable/relative understanding.
My point was not about comparable/relative understanding. It was about belief versus acceptance. Care to address that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Straggler, posted 10-30-2013 1:08 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Straggler, posted 10-30-2013 1:32 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 89 of 693 (709847)
10-30-2013 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Straggler
10-30-2013 1:12 PM


Straggler writes:
I'm disputing that you could possibly be in possession of the level of ignorance you are claiming regarding gravity, the effects of gravity and understanding of said phenomenon.
You're avoiding the point of the post. You're asking me to repeat ad nauseam what I have already clarified. If you don't like my answer boo hoo but you're not going to get a different answer to the same question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Straggler, posted 10-30-2013 1:12 PM Straggler has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 121 of 693 (709967)
10-31-2013 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Straggler
10-30-2013 1:32 PM


Straggler writes:
What is the difference between accepting the existence of Coca Cola and believing that Coca Cola exists?
You have to consider that question in the context of this discussion - i.e. in comparison with the belief in God.
I accept Coca-Cola in the same way I accept aerodynamics. I can observe the effects and I can recognize that somebody else understands those effects better than I do. Belief in God is quite different. There are no effects to observe.
Ergo, acceptance of Coca-Cola and aerodynamics are different from belief in God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Straggler, posted 10-30-2013 1:32 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Straggler, posted 10-31-2013 11:49 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 122 of 693 (709968)
10-31-2013 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by greentwiga
10-30-2013 3:52 PM


greentwiga writes:
I am talking about the Bible preserving the time and location of the domestication of wheat, even to the location being on a volcano, despite 6,000 years of passing the story on verbally.
Where does it do that? Chapter and verse, please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by greentwiga, posted 10-30-2013 3:52 PM greentwiga has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 126 of 693 (709972)
10-31-2013 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Straggler
10-31-2013 9:20 AM


Re: Theological Claims
Straggler writes:
Does the fact that adopting the theories of the apple guy and the crazy hair dude allowed us to put men on the moon and discover/predict a range of new observable phenomena indicate that these theories are in any way accurate descriptions of reality?
They are accurate enough for the problem at hand, just like the Biblical understanding of gravity is accurate enough for deciding whether or not to sleep under apple trees.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Straggler, posted 10-31-2013 9:20 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Straggler, posted 10-31-2013 11:59 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 127 of 693 (709973)
10-31-2013 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Straggler
10-31-2013 11:49 AM


Straggler writes:
But one doesn't need to invent private definitions of "belief" or "accept" to make that point.
They aren't "private definitions". They're distinctions - like making a distinction between dogs and cats instead of just calling them "pets".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Straggler, posted 10-31-2013 11:49 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Straggler, posted 10-31-2013 11:56 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 131 of 693 (709978)
10-31-2013 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Straggler
10-31-2013 11:56 AM


Straggler writes:
... an idiotic and patently false claim that you are as ignorant as Moses...
You missing the word "about" makes me an idiot? I have ABOUT the same understandimg of gravity as Moses did - despite the availability of additional opportunities. I have ABOUT the same consumption of Coca-Cola as Moses did, despite the increased availability.
Straggler writes:
... some semantic nit picking in order to make a "distinction".
The semantic nitpicking would be pretending there isn't a distinction when there is. If you don't make a distinction between dogs and cats, that's fine, but don't pretend that nobody can make a distinction.
Straggler writes:
And you had the temerity to call me a troll....
Yup. I did and I do. About half the time you have something intelligent to say. I think I've even cheered you a couple of times. The other half, you're a troll, trying to get the answer you want instead of the answer you get.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Straggler, posted 10-31-2013 11:56 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Straggler, posted 10-31-2013 12:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 135 of 693 (709983)
10-31-2013 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Straggler
10-31-2013 12:10 PM


Straggler writes:
Hey I'm just making a distinction between your understanding of gravity and that of Moses.....
I thought you liked distinctions.
I didn't say there was no possible distinction. Did you miss the word "about" again? Dogs are about as popular as cats - maybe within ten or twenty per cent, who knows. Maybe I do know ten or twenty per cent more about our concept of gravity than Moses did. Most likely he knew twenty to forty per cent more about their concept of gravity than I do.
I'm making a distinction between concepts. You're making a distinction between numbers. Do you see the difference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Straggler, posted 10-31-2013 12:10 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Straggler, posted 10-31-2013 12:32 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 138 of 693 (709986)
10-31-2013 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Straggler
10-31-2013 12:32 PM


Straggler writes:
I can run about as fast as Usain Bolt compared to the speed of a bullet. But if I were to simply say "I can run about as fast as Usain Bolt" people would quite reasonably point out that this isn't the case unless there is some serious misuse of the word "about" going on.
You and Usain Bolt are a lot closer together than Usain Bolt and a bullet. Moses and I are a lot closer together than I and Stephen Hawking.
Straggler writes:
Well you've made your distinction and we all seem to agree (even jar eventually) that the reasons people adopt a belief in gravity aren't the same as the reasons people adopt a belief in God.
You could have saved us all a lot of time by just cheering me in the first place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Straggler, posted 10-31-2013 12:32 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Straggler, posted 10-31-2013 12:53 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 150 of 693 (710007)
10-31-2013 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Straggler
10-31-2013 2:12 PM


Straggler writes:
The aim is to believe things that are likely to be true.
Belief is for the things whose truth value we can not assess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Straggler, posted 10-31-2013 2:12 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Straggler, posted 11-01-2013 8:23 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 176 of 693 (710072)
11-01-2013 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Straggler
11-01-2013 8:23 AM


Straggler writes:
Given the statement "I don't believe in God, I believe in Gravity" it seems obvious to me that the term "believe" is being used in the second sense.
Yes, "to believe is to accept as true." However, it is important to make a distinction between whether we accept something because of the evidence or we believe it despite the lack of any evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Straggler, posted 11-01-2013 8:23 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Straggler, posted 11-01-2013 12:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 179 of 693 (710075)
11-01-2013 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Straggler
11-01-2013 12:08 PM


Re: It's All In your Mind
Straggler writes:
... these non-empirical methods you speak of are entirely useless with regard to things external to one's own mind....
It should be possible to compare one's own mind with somebody else's mind to some extent. It should be possible to discuss concepts like "I like ice cream" in an almost objective way without being able to empirically test the "liking" of ice cream.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Straggler, posted 11-01-2013 12:08 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Straggler, posted 11-01-2013 12:22 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 180 of 693 (710076)
11-01-2013 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Straggler
11-01-2013 12:12 PM


Straggler writes:
Which is what a thread examining the statement " I don't believe in God, I believe in Gravity" is all about.
And yet you wasted oh so many posts saying I was wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Straggler, posted 11-01-2013 12:12 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Straggler, posted 11-01-2013 12:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 183 of 693 (710079)
11-01-2013 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Straggler
11-01-2013 12:22 PM


Re: It's All In your Mind
Straggler writes:
Tasting ice cream is indisputably an empirical expereince.
Whether one likes or loathes that taste is subjective.
Subjective empirical experiences can be compared. When we have similar ice-cream-tasting observations, the "liking" of ice cream moves into a grayish area between subjective and objective. The same would apply to religious experiences.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Straggler, posted 11-01-2013 12:22 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Straggler, posted 11-01-2013 12:34 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 184 of 693 (710080)
11-01-2013 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Straggler
11-01-2013 12:26 PM


Straggler writes:
Hey - Once you'd got past your misuse of the word "about" I was happy to agree with you and even cheered (admittedly at your request) your post Message 138
I didn't misuse the word "about". You ignored it until I discovered the caps-lock key.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Straggler, posted 11-01-2013 12:26 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Straggler, posted 11-01-2013 12:39 PM ringo has replied

  
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