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Author Topic:   How do you tell one species of turtle from another?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 16 (771202)
10-22-2015 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
10-22-2015 9:08 AM


Yes, they identified different evolutionary lineages, but do they actually know that this new species of turtle does not and perhaps cannot breed with the old?
The paper gives a discussion of the reasons for the classification by DNA of the turtles as different species. The rationale does not include any consideration of interbreeding. The idea expressed in the article is that the different species have had little to no gene flow between them, and the time of divergence is expressed in millions of years in the past as opposed to being of recent vintage.
quote:
Each of the two taxa have numerous private alleles, implying very little recent gene flow, and they are as genetically divergent from each other as the other named species are from one another [11, 13, 20]. Previous studies have also revealed the existence of a limited amount of introgression between the two taxa [11, 13, 20], which is not unexpected given their geographical proximity.
I take this sentence to mean that the two taxa can interbreed, but that they have genetic divergence on the order/magnitude that we find between species under the current classification system.
Or are they perhaps using some DNA bookkeeping criteria for determining species that ignores interfertility of populations?
Yeah, that seems to be what is going on. I would add though that the kind of genetic separation involved probably would not exist if there were unrestricted interbreeding.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 10-22-2015 9:08 AM Percy has replied

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 16 (771232)
10-22-2015 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Percy
10-22-2015 12:57 PM


So we've classified C. chathamensis and C. phantastica as two different species, but if we don't know to what degree they're genetically interfertile, how much sense does it make to say that?
Is the lack of sense because you are trying to force fertility into the definition? Perhaps your definition is not flexible enough to capture actual usage of the term.
From the wikipedia article on species.
quote:
in biology, a species (abbreviated sp., with the plural form species abbreviated spp.) is one of the basic units of biological classification and a taxonomic rank. A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms where two hybrids are capable of reproducing fertile offspring, typically using sexual reproduction. While in many cases this definition is adequate, the difficulty of defining species is known as the species problem. Differing measures are often used, such as similarity of DNA, morphology, or ecological niche.
If inter-fertility is not a hard and fast part of the definition, then that would seem to address the question you ask about making sense.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Percy, posted 10-22-2015 12:57 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

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 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 10-22-2015 4:42 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 12 of 16 (771291)
10-23-2015 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Percy
10-23-2015 4:12 PM


These two ways (and more) of defining species have been discussed here before, but that article seemed to be saying, "They *are* two different species,"
To be completely fair to the article authors, the rationale for saying that the turtles are of different species is given in the article. The rationale given boils down to saying that the genetic differences are greater than the differences between other groupings of turtles which are already designated as different species.
The other thing to note is that regardless of the degree of certainty expressed in the article, what is written is the opinion of the authors. My inclination is to agree with their rationale, but the designation of species and sub species is somewhat in the eye of the beholder.
ABE:
I took a look at the wikipedia classification on birds, not only are there interfertile species of birds, there are bird hybrids formed from pairs of birds that are classified as different genii and different families although the latter is described as rare.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Percy, posted 10-23-2015 4:12 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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