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Author Topic:   How do you tell one species of turtle from another?
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2727 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


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Message 5 of 16 (771206)
10-22-2015 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
10-22-2015 9:08 AM


Hi, Percy.
Percy writes:
Or are they perhaps using some DNA bookkeeping criteria for determining species that ignores interfertility of populations?
It's basically this. If you look at Fig. 2A, you can see that the two populations from Santa Cruz island (the orange and red blocks) resolve at very different locations on the phylogenetic tree.
They're apparently not even sister groups: the Cerro Fatal population's is most closely related to a population from Cristobal Island, which is considered a separate species (Chelonoidis chathamensis); and the La Reserva population is most closely related to a population from Fernandina Island, which is also considered a separate species (C. phantastica).
When you classify species by genetic analysis, the only real criterion is consistency: if the Cristobal and Fernandina populations are considered separate species, then, to be consistent, these two Santa Cruz populations should also be considered separate species. The alternative is to reshuffle all the currently-accepted species into an alternative arrangement (for example, looking at Fig 2A, you could argue that there are really only 3-4 different "primary" lineages), but elevating one population to a new species is less work and less confusion than trying to reassign everything.

-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*
*Yeah, it's real
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 10-22-2015 9:08 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Percy, posted 10-22-2015 12:57 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2727 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 7 of 16 (771228)
10-22-2015 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Percy
10-22-2015 12:57 PM


Hi, Percy.
Percy writes:
So we've classified C. chathamensis and C. phantastica as two different species, but if we don't know to what degree they're genetically interfertile, how much sense does it make to say that?
It's just a matter of deciding whether the product you get from using rigorous, experimentally-derived standards like interfertility would be substantially more useful and informative than a product based on something less intellectually pure but more logistically viable.
Ultimately, a species designation is a hypothesis about the population's evolutionary history and genetic isolatoin. Experimentation to test those hypotheses would be the intellectually pure thing to do, but when you consider how resource-intensive it would be, and the high likelihood that it will only be really useful to a very narrow range of academics, you can kind of guess that it's a low priority.

-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*
*Yeah, it's real
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Percy, posted 10-22-2015 12:57 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Percy, posted 10-23-2015 4:12 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
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