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Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Working Conditions and Benefits | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
In my experience it was a fear thing. I was surprised to find that my colleagues had no employment contracts, they can and were sacked without notice or warning and without compensation. This is fairly recent and a result of ALEC "Right to Work" laws (which is orwellian speak for right to fire at any time with no reason). Business and GOP have collaborated since Reagan to gut unions and associations for workers and have been rolling back the rights of workers ever since.
There are plenty of international productivity stats produced. The US is generally high up them, but there are plenty of buts. Curiously I don't think those measure productivity but profits. By cutting union rights, installing fire at will legislation, and sending jobs to foreign soil the corporations effectively leave workers doing the same job for less pay. That boosts profits but not productivity. When I lived in Canada I had four weeks vacation. When I moved back to the US I was offered 2 weeks standard, but bargained for 3. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
If those in the US are more productive per hour and they work more hours too then in terms of productivity per capita they must be absolutely kicking butt. Curiously I have seen graphs of productivity against time showing a clear trend to increased productivity over time. They also show corporate profits following that trend while worker wages are flat-lined or decreasing. This shows that the benefits of increased production are going to the top 1% and are not being shared by the people actually responsible for the work. In my experience the work morale has dropped as the benefits of that extra work are siphoned off to the top, that people care less about the quality, that they don't enjoy work anymore. So the question to you is: does increased production really result in a good measure of the social benefit? Do we need increased production if the common worker doesn't benefit from it? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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In terms iof international comparisons how can we measure whether the US or European model leads to better outcomes for all/most in terms of standard of living and quality of life? Good question. One way would by by how the benefits of production are distributed among the employees; another would be by how the least well-off people are treated; a third would be by how much free time a person has to do what they want to do rather than what someone else wants them to do (hours per day, days per week, weeks per year). Money doesn't measure happiness, so money is de facto a bad metric. If we divided minimum wage by maximum wage America would rank near the bottom. This thread is about Working Conditions and Benefits, so we should review the status of these. Back when "America was Great" (the 1950's) unions were strong and the middle class had a fair(er) distribution of the profits from production. Since then unions have been decimated and along with it the power of workers the negotiate for fair(er) wages. Unions were demonized (see Hyroglyphx's post above) so that people are no longer proud to be union members. I believe same is occurring in UK. So now we have broad base demonstrations for minimum wage increases to catch up to the relative position they had under unions (and which benefited non-union workers as well as union workers, especially in middle management jobs for the middle class). The unions gave us the 40 hr work week, vacation time, health benefits, safe working conditions, and the like; things that have become law for all workers, and this is the model for moving forward with progressive domestic policies, to use the laws rather than exclusive unions which have outgrown their need. Emphasis on the workers in general getting a fair shake of the production pie is what has made Bernie Sanders so popular. It is also why he got the endorsement from the Working Families Party as his policies match up to theirs:
quote: I've said before that Unions served a valuable service to workers, but that they should have expanded their goals to include all workers, and evolved to get their issues addressed in public laws that apply to everyone. This would involve a "labor party" in America (like you see in other nations, like UK), but the US is hog-tied by the two party system due to the way voting is done (third parties are just not that viable an option here)/ This is what Working Families is doing, by working within the Democratic Party to shift it to progressive goals (as the Tea Party shifted the GOP to the extreme right). We KNOW that GOP (corporate) "trickle-down economics" is just a tool to concentrate wealth at the top at the expense of all lower levels. We KNOW from the economic meltdown (from big bank\corporate greed and gambling with mortgages etc) started at the bottom and took down the whole house of cards, that the true economy is trickle-UP. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
This compares countries on 8 indices:
quote: Looks like the US rates 11th overall Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I'm economically conservative (I think unemployment insurance and many mandates tax job hiring thus hurt poor people prospects plus are benefits that are designed to help upper income people pay their bloated mortgages) on business regulatory issues, but the Republicans are a bunch of plastic cookie cutter drones (Paul Ryan only rehashes tired old crap and is portrayed as an "intellectual" in the media). Part of the problem is that welfare and other support programs actually penalize people who get some work by cutting benefits by the amount they earn (leaving them with the cost and time invested in getting to and from) so it disincentives getting small time work.
I look forward to a Sanders win. It will force some real discussion of many issues. What we see is that the US is reinventing\rediscovering a lot of socialist programs such as minimum living wage, overtime pay, paid sick leave and wage equality issues. Ran across this interesting pair of (worth 50 minutes each) videos on facebook about defining "socialism" and it's history:
and then followed up with this:
Take the time to think objectively about these. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Here"s another one for the workers:
Brave new world eh? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I afraid so, and unemployment will go up quite a bit (at the lower end) because of it ... Curiously the actual data from places that have minimum wages shows that unemployment goes down. (see Minnesota vs Wisconsin) There are two reasons for this:
It seems counter-intuitive but the evidence backs this up. Minnesota economy beats Wisconsin: 7 charts, 1 table | NewsCut | Minnesota Public Radio News Several charts to peruse at your leisure. Note that they start at the same point with equivalent values, then Democratic Progressive policies were enacted in Minnesota and regressive Republican policies were enacted in Wisconsin. It is a SLAM-DUNK that the progressive polices work better that the regressive ones.
... The Republicans picked a really bad time to go after birth control (2012) lol. It truly amazes me that they still get elected with all the people that they have gone out of their way to alienate for ideological (bigotry, xenophobia, misogyny, etc) reasons. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : spby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I think we're asking the wrong questions and pushing the wrong initiatives to ensure people have decent lives. Indeed. There are so many programs that seem to be band-aids rather than a comprehensive plan. Unemployment, Food Stamps, Disability, Affordable Housing, Subsidized Housing, Social Security, Health Care, etc etc etc What we are basically talking about is a base standard of living for everyone, yes? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
What we are basically talking about is a base standard of living for everyone, yes? That's a fine goal to aspire to, but what kind of plans would you implement it to make it become a reality? Well one thing to consider is that we pay for this one way or the other. Certainly there are a lot if programs that address different parts of this issue, and some of them may be considered social programs: unemployment, social security, food stamps, housing assistance, etc etc And some of them could be considered anti-social programs: police, home security systems, security guards, ghettos, prisons, etc etc. One question is how do we want this mix to operate and can we effect some cost cutting measures. Another question is what level of basic service do we want to provide. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Police and home security systems are anti-social? Can you elaborate? Yes. Instead of helping, supporting and uniting people, their purpose\goal is to suppress, isolate and divide people -- we have the largest prison population per capita of the developed nations because of this. People will do anything to survive, and if the means are not available to do it lawfully, then they turn to criminal means: stealing, fraud, etc. Police then reacts to this to suppress "crime" -- treating the symptom and not the cause. Again we can compare Minnesota and Wisconsin.Wisconsin and Minnesota: A One-Sided Political Competition Wages up, unemployment down. and on crime‘—‘‘ Crime rate ~same, but prison population in Wisconsin is >2x Minnesota, parole population is >3x Minnesota while probation population is ~2.5 higher in Minnesota than Wisconsin ie more offenders in Minnesota are on probation (where they can be with family and earn a wage) while more offenders in Wisconsin are in jail (where they are kept from family and work). And total incarceration costs overall are significantly higher for Wisconsin than Minnesota. So Wisconsin is paying more to house inmates in bunkhouse jails and in loss of worker income. Both of these states spend a lot of money to control criminal behavior, so the question is -- what is the root cause of criminal behavior. Interestingly there does not appear to be a significant correlation of crime to minimum wagesMultilevel Study Finds No Link Between Minimum Wage and Crime Rates | University Of Cincinnati quote: So I read this to be a small and relatively insignificant drop in crime with higher minimum wages, however they were not compared to living wage levels, just to the Consumer's Price Index. As wages remain below living wage levels, the economic impetus for crime to compensate remains. Minimum wage was increased here from ~50% of a living wage to ~60% ... not a big help in reducing poverty imho. What we DO see is a reduction in the use of SNAP (food stamps) by people with higher minimum wages. Again, it is a matter of how we pay for basic standards of living, because we do end up paying one way or the other. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Just paying people more is a short term solution, and how does one go about that anyhow? ... The simplest way would be a minimum annual living cost benefit, run as part of the IRS tax structure, and replacing minimum wage, unemployment, food stamps, welfare, social security, etc. etc. Indexed to cost of living -- everyone gets a weekly check, monthly check or annual check\tax deduction, depending on your choice. Wages above that would be earned additional income, and employers could offer anything from 1 cent/hour up, but they would have to pay enough to make it attractive to the worker. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
There isn't 'a' root cause; it's complex. The summarised position is that crime is normal - that is, we're all capable of and even willing to commit every crime if the circumstances permit. Circumstances are the complex bit - opportunity and propensity are two main chunks, each influenced by numerous factors - age, sex, upbringing, state of mind, environment, genetics, chance of being caught, beliefs etc etc etc. And I agree but we could also admit that there is possibly some correlation to"(perceived) need" and "opportunity" and that crime would tend to increase with an increase in either. The basic impetus of laws and courts and security systems and police is to reduce "opportunity" while the impetus of social programs is to reduce "(perceived) need" (a well fed person doesn't steal food, when a starving person would, given the same opportunity). If a living pension\wage\dividend provided one with shelter food and security, then the need to resort to crime to obtain these would be lessened. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I don't think the USA allows people to starve on the streets unless they are rejecting help? ... Florida made it a felony to feed homeless people, and arrested a pastor that was handing out food. Cities (republicans) have passed laws making it illegal to sleep outside at night - I don't know what the punishment is for breaking these laws, probably put them in jail.
... Most low level theft isn't to survive, it's to support drug and alcohol addiction. I think it's a stretch to suppose that higher beneits or that increasing minimum pay rates would reduce crime given that basic needs are met. ... So if "basic needs are met" then would that not "support drug and alcohol addiction" ??? (Especially if decriminalizing and treating drugs would be part of the program).
... The evidence is rather against it - in the last recession crime rates fell. Its harder to steal from poorer people, especially when they are in concentrated locations.
But I do agree that pursuing a living wage is a worthy goal in its own right. People should be able to work a 35-40 hour week and get health, sick leave and health benefits, food and shelter, with time for family and some rest and relaxation. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I'm not sure I understand the concept fully. Are you referring to an Earned Income Tax Credit that can be done annually, monthly, or bi-weekly? Not really, more like a dividend check, or an equity, for doing your share of participating in the economy. This would free people to do more art and crafts, allow small businesses startups to thrive, etc. See The 50-50-50-50-50 tax and economic plan. for more Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... They do it because free shit is better than paying for it or they have some kind of addiction to support. There's not too many cases of people stealing loaves of bread for their hungry children but there are plenty of cases of people stealing cars and stripping them for parts. I would say because it is easier than getting a well paying job, and because our society values things highly and people not so much.
I definitely agree with that last statement. Either we pay more in SNAP or we pay more income. But isn't this substituting one problem for another? The U.S. Congressional Budget Office reports that raising the national minimum wage can and does result in the loss of jobs. To be fair, we would have to look at what kinds of jobs are being lost -- if it is sub-poverty wage jobs, then those should be lost, and if a business can't survive without such jobs then it should not survive. Such jobs are ways to steal life from people to pad someone's pockets -- putting money over people. Another aspect that is rarely discussed is that currently people are working 2+ jobs to get enough to live, working long hours for sub-poverty pay rates, and with a living wage this is no longer necessary -- and that frees up jobs. In other words there would be fewer jobs but more people in the workforce. The final aspect I would bring up is that this dip would be temporary as people adjusted to the new system. The economy would grow from more money flowing at the bottom, people having more leisure time and money to spend on discretionary consumption rather than necessities. This in turn would boost small business and provide for their growth ... and new jobs, jobs that pay a living wage.
As of now, 1 in 7 Americans are on SNAP. If there was a national increase in minimum wage, we could see that ratio double or even triple. That's my concern. http://www.prb.org/...ions/Articles/2014/us-food-stamps.aspx
quote: ie fewer jobs paying a living wage Facts About SNAP | Food and Nutrition Service
quote: And it varies from area to area as food prices vary (at least in theory, but I don't think they compare food costs by area served, generally higher in low income areas?). McDonald's helps workers get food stamps
quote: Instead of paying a living wage McD is making us taxepayers pick up the slack while they record record profits. Wal-Mart's low wages cost taxpayers
quote: And Walmart record profits in the billions annually ... subsidized by the American taxpayer. But that is not all of the effect of their sub-poverty wages, those wages make it hard for local businesses to compete and you lose jobs when those businesses close. http://thinkprogress.org/...ssential-facts-about-food-stamps
quote: So paying a living wage could reduce SNAP by 40% ... If we consider that {paid wage + SNAP} ≡ living wage, and that{actual cost of worker} ≥ living wage Then we are paying the employer {living wage - paid wage} = SNAP for them to do business -- they are subsidized by the taxpayer, they are the real 'welfare queens' ...
quote: 40% of 4.7 million = 1.88 million households ... The cost of poverty to society is huge. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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