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Author | Topic: The Marketing Of Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Faith,responding to jaywill writes: Go for it, jaywill.
.. But the idea that there is a variety of gifts that need more encouragement makes sense. If you'd like to start a thread I'd like to hear what you have to say.But maybe we should have another thread for sorting out these things. Start one if you want, Faith. I think we could discuss it here, however. First lets review what the Bible says about Spiritual gifts and examine what the evidence shows about whether or not anyone we know has such gifts. First a question in general. jar believes that the church is called to help everyone whether they profess Christianity or not.(correct me if I'm wrong, jar) Does everyone see wisdom in this or do we spend our money and time on Christians first?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: jar believes that the church is called to help everyone whether they profess Christianity or not.(correct me if I'm wrong, jar) Does everyone see wisdom in this or do we spend our money and time on Christians first? When Jesus fed the multitude he did not first ask their affiliation. Have I ever mentioned Matthew 25? In that story it is the Goats who are the followers, the Christians. You should help those you can help, feed the hungry on the streets of Denver first whether or not they are Christians. AbE: and of course Paul also said that prophesy was pretty much worthless with charity.
quote: Edited by jar, : see AbEAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: I have never heard that parable described by mentioning the goats as Christians. You do have a valid argument, however. Critics would assert that Jesus had not undergone the death,burial, and resurrection and thus had not yet paid the price for all...thus the audience at that speech was likely clueless as to what a Christian was. You might argue, however, that since Jesus addresses "all the nations" it may speak of a future time and addresses everyone on the planet.
Have I ever mentioned Matthew 25? In that story it is the Goats who are the followers, the Christians.When the son of man comes in all his glory was speaking of a time in the future, I would guess. Evidently sheep did for the least of these and goats just tried to look and sound holy....so perhaps the goats were/are Christians...I dunno... ...and of course Paul also said that prophesy was pretty much worthless with charity. Charity is also translated as Love,and the word prophecy essentially means foreseeing...an intuitive word versus an educated (or random) guess. Does this mean that Paul was suggesting that Loving people was more important than speaking into their lives? This gets back to the question of whether we are loving God simply by feeding a down and out street guy without attempting to speak into his life and market our religion on him. I can see arguments for both views. Of course if a marketeer believes that humanity is not lost,that people are ok the way they are, and that carrying in groceries and making a beer run are approved by GOD, I suppose I can see the point. One question might be whether the church should be any different than habitat for humanity or any other secular organization. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Jaywill sounds like he has a different form of church in mind than the usual, and although I vaguely recall that he brought this up once before in a way that I thought odd or even heretical despite his generally solidly biblical arguments, I don't remember it well enough to be sure and I'm curious what this other form of church is like. I myself always particularly enjoyed small groups off the larger church and have always been sorry that my current church doesn't think they are a good idea. I could see how spiritual gifts, which are after all possessed by every Christian, could be better put to use in a small group, but that's what I'd want to see discussed.
ABE: Now I remember that he supported some of Witness Lee's ideas about the Local Church, and that prompted me to read up on the controversy about that. I came away convinced that Lee's vision was acceptable within the New Testament context. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
First a question in general. jar believes that the church is called to help everyone whether they profess Christianity or not.(correct me if I'm wrong, jar) Does everyone see wisdom in this or do we spend our money and time on Christians first? If we have limited means we start with the Family of God, it wouldn't make sense to ignore your Christian brother or sister while spending all your means on an unbeliever. That said, we are to help whoever needs it, but gospel first is the right order. Feed people, sure, but what people need most is salvation and taking care of the body while ignoring that primary need is a big mistake.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: Charity is also translated as Love,and the word prophecy essentially means foreseeing...an intuitive word versus an educated (or random) guess. Actually Paul was familiar with the word love but he did not say faith hope and love, he said Charity. And Prophecy in the Biblical sense is only foreseeing in the language of the Christian Cult of Ignorance. Prophecy was a direct memo from God, a warning, do this and I will do that and very much the result of and educated assessment and NOT intuition. Today the concept of Spiritual Gifts is just another con game and nonsense.
Phat writes: This gets back to the question of whether we are loving God simply by feeding a down and out street guy without attempting to speak into his life and market our religion on him. Yes, over time the concepts that Jesus taught did evolve into proselytizing and product marketing.
Phat writes: Of course if a marketeer believes that humanity is not lost,that people are ok the way they are, and that carrying in groceries and making a beer run are approved by GOD, I suppose I can see the point. Whether or not humanity is lost is totally irrelevant. The question is whether or not people are hungry, sorrowful, naked, sick, without shelter ...
Phat writes: One question might be whether the church should be any different than habitat for humanity or any other secular organization. The church should be just like them except on steroids. The churches works should shine so brightly that people ask "Why?" Edited by jar, : fix quote boxAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: We can always hypothetically ask WWJD?(What Would Jesus Do?) From what I know of Jesus He likely would do both--depending upon the circumstances of the moment. He could have just had His disciples tell everyone that there would be plenty of food...and then multiply a few loaves and fishes and fed everyone and that would be it. But what does the Bible say? I've had pastors who said that it does no good to feed the body unless you feed the soul too. The problem with that philosophy is that when the body is hungry, the soul most likely isn't listening. Of course in Matthew we see John The Baptist foretelling the coming of Jesus. Matthew 3:1-3 writes: John goes on to say that Jesus was coming for a specific reason.
In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea and saying, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near. This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: A voice of one calling in the wilderness,‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’ John 3:11-12 writes: The wheat and chaff analogy reminds us of Matthew 25 and the Sheep & Goats. It seems that "sheep" are a common reference and a good word study might help facilitate understanding. Gotta put that on my list...note also that John claims that Jesus will ...baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Not just simply give you a sandwich and tell you to have a nice day...see you at the movies! And let us look at what Jesus did...Im sticking with Matthew for now....
I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Matthew 3:16-17 writes: Some scholars attribute this as a reference inferring a Trinitarian God. 1)Father in Heaven 2) Descending dove...comforter...Holy Spirit...3)Jesus Himself...human while on earth yet bestowed by God and eternally existant. As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.Wiki writes: Thus it is all really about GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen relating to a bunch of ants on a dust speck...an earth among planets surrounding a Sun among many billions of stars Who by becoming an ant (which does not mean that the Creator created this ant but that the ant was by nature the creator in human form).... The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (from Latin trinitas "triad", from trinus "threefold")[1] defines God as three consubstantial persons,[2] expressions, or hypostases:[3] the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit; "one God in three persons". The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature".[4] In this context, a "nature" is what one is, while a "person" is who one is..Wiki writes:
It has been said that Johns Gospel emphasizes Jesus as Deity more than the others. jar once explained it this way: Trinitarianism contrasts with nontrinitarian positions which include Binitarianism (one deity in two persons, or two deities), Unitarianism (one deity in one person, analogous to Jewish interpretation of the Shema and Muslim belief in Tawhid), Oneness Pentecostalism or Modalism (one deity manifested in three separate aspects).jar writes: Which could explain why there was a voice "from Heaven" rather than Jesus simply crowning Himself as Napoleon of France once did! I do believe that Jesus is GOD but while he was here on earth He was fully man, human, just like you, just like me. I think lots of folk misunderstand the term incarnate. They have, if they even really think about it at all, some idea of incarnate means "God in Human Form" as though it was some costume GOD put on so he could sneak around and spy on the humans. Anyway lets get back to Matthew. The original question was whether a Christian should do more than simply feed people. So lets examine Jesus some more.In Matthew 4, Jesus is tested in the Wilderness. Matthew 4:1-4 writes: I would argue that this scripture supports the idea that people don't simply need bread. I don't mean to suggest that feeding people is wrong. Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread. 4 Jesus answered, It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God. Edited by Phat, : fixed broken quoteChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes:
First a question in general. jar believes that the church is called to help everyone whether they profess Christianity or not.(correct me if I'm wrong, jar) Does everyone see wisdom in this or do we spend our money and time on Christians first? Faith writes: It could be argued, however, that the "Family of God" already knows the Creator and thus would not need the food as much as an unbeliever. Why go out after church and buy each other lunch at Dennys when your "spare change" could be easily spent more profitably elsewhere? Food for thought. If we have limited means we start with the Family of God, it wouldn't make sense to ignore your Christian brother or sister while spending all your means on an unbeliever. That said, we are to help whoever needs it, but gospel first is the right order. Feed people, sure, but what people need most is salvation and taking care of the body while ignoring that primary need is a big mistake.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Hyro writes: Sorry Ive ignored your posts until now. My sis has been in town and we have been doing things for mom. Mom is 92, sis is 67 and im 56 so all I can say is Im not as young as I want to be! Anyway lets talk, Hyro. (shortening your name because im lazy)
I'm asking for you to flesh out some of your ideas because I don't quite know what you mean.. We can deduce with 100% accuracy that God does NOT honor all prayers. Would you agree? The evidence would show that He does not honor,nor grant favor to all prayers. The jury is out on whether he answers Any prayers, but I believe that he does. So it seems that it's all a crap shoot either way. I disagree. Gambling is based on probability. The difference between probability and chance is that probability can be mathematically calculated whereas chance can only be guessed. And as you see from my quote, I do NOT believe that chance is a valid concept.
... what does that tell you about God? It either tells you that he is selective or.... that he's simply not there and that his existence is nothing more than a comforting thought that you would prefer to be real, but in fact is not. We have no way to test whether God is here or not. I believe that He is. That being said, I don't believe that God functions similar to how Barbara Eden did on I Dream of Jeannie. Personally, I have challenges regarding my belief but i'm hardly "running on fumes". I have a lot of questions but quite frankly I rarely doubt...except when I'm personally uncomfortable and mad at God for not doing as I wanted Him to do. Debating with jar has taught me a lot how to think, how to question, and viewing Christianity not simply through the lens of people who parrot my belief, but rather through many different people and beliefs. On some level you must be able to recognize that God is something you are choosing to believe versus something self-evident otherwise you wouldn't even ask these questions. I ask these questions not just for myself but on behalf of encouraging/teaching/understanding others. I dont have a motive to market my beliefs in the vain hope that everyone will jump ship and agree with me. I have a passion for discussing this stuff largely because I believe that GOD is real. Besides...I get bored talking politics and football! So surely you must be wrestling with these ideas already. If I never wrestled, I would never learn. You're just looking for compelling reasons to continue to believe in things you'd prefer to be true because your faith is close to running on fumes at this point. This brings up a question and potentially a topic unto itself: Do most people believe in things that they prefer to be true? This goes for religion, politics, and even slot machines! Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
The question is: What is the baptism for? Is it an end in itself? Or is it intended to help you make better sandwiches?
...note also that John claims that Jesus will ...baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Not just simply give you a sandwich and tell you to have a nice day... Phat writes:
I have never suggested that a Christian shouldn't do "more". What exactly do you think IS "more"?
The original question was whether a Christian should do more than simply feed people. Phat writes:
That sounds like step one in the get-out-of-hell-free marketing strategy.
I would argue that this scripture supports the idea that people don't simply need bread.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Some say that there are lost people and "found" people and that the saved ones have come to a knowledge of Gods truth that the lost people had nary a clue about. If you believe that, the baptism gives you knowledge. It is not, however, an end in itself. A man could have all the knowledge of the universe, but if he never applied it towards any profitable end, it would be useless. The same goes for the baptism that John the Baptist states happens through Jesus the Righteous One. In which case I would say that "yes, it helps you make better sandiches"..
The question is: What is the baptism for? Is it an end in itself? Or is it intended to help you make better sandwiches? ringo writes: Good question. Perhaps "more" is more of a conscience...more of a desire to help others...more insight into how others think and feel...empathy, perhaps.
I have never suggested that a Christian shouldn't do "more". What exactly do you think IS "more"? ringo writes: Some don't think that there is a hell. Most can agree on some sort of judgement...even if a Creator need not be present in their mind. Perhaps some may believe that we are our own judges. If so, one can get-out-of-hell, it is free to do, and all it requires is some discipline...and perhaps a baptism by fire. That (scriptural reference) sounds like step one in the get-out-of-hell-free marketing strategy.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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ringo writes: The question is: What is the baptism for? Is it an end in itself? Or is it intended to help you make better sandwiches? That's a great, great question since in many of the traditional Christian sects, baptism is far more than a dunk and a blessing. In the major Christian sects Baptism (and the later Confirmation) is a contractual agreement between the laity (all the members) made before God. It is about doing and not about washing away sins. Baptism is done in those sects when the child is young, too young to understand the contract and so it is the laity that in fact accepts the duties for the child until that child is old enough to assume the responsibility (Confirmation). And that at the Confirmation not only the child accepts the responsibility but the laity also reaffirms their commitment. Here is the section I included in my story of my religious growth found at Belief Statement - jar.
quote: Note that almost all of the contract involves what the individual(s) is(are) to do and nowhere is there any mention washing away sins or being saved or any get outta hell free card. Baptism and Confirmation are charges to act, to do. Edited by jar, : let out an at Edited by jar, : appalin churse of warding ... reaffirms not confirmsAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So I have to ask you for the umpteenth time: Why is it that the people who claim to be "found" often don't have the first clue about anything?
Some say that there are lost people and "found" people and that the saved ones have come to a knowledge of Gods truth that the lost people had nary a clue about. If you believe that, the baptism gives you knowledge. Phat writes:
That's what I'm saying. You can be baptized till the cows come home but if you don't do something useful, like making sandwiches for the hungry, what's the point?
A man could have all the knowledge of the universe, but if he never applied it towards any profitable end, it would be useless. Phat writes:
Again, what good is more conscience, more desire to help, more insight, more empathy unless you use it?
Perhaps "more" is more of a conscience...more of a desire to help others...more insight into how others think and feel...empathy, perhaps.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: In my opinion, God gave us a brain but He wont use it for us. I believe that He sometimes inspires creativity, knowledge, and insight but that it is us who have to use it. Its like having a bottle of medicine that you never use. YOU have to open the bottle and take the necessary action to promote healing. That being said I believe that God is better medicine than without, but of course thats my personal belief. Some folks believe that only they can heal themselves. In any case it takes action. jar was right. its about what you do. Why is it that the people who claim to be "found" often don't have the first clue about anything?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: In any case it takes action. jar was right. its about what you do. Is there a difference between feeding somebody with Jesus help and feeding somebody because that person is hungry?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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