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Author Topic:   Trump's order on immigration and the wacko liberal response
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 346 of 993 (798955)
02-06-2017 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by Faith
02-06-2017 5:14 PM


AN IN/SANE AND DANGEROUS REVISIONIST POSITION
quote:
nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws
That's right in the Constitution. Non-citizens within US jurisdiction are equally protected as citizens. If you want to say the Constitution is insane and dangerous go right ahead. Is that what you meant?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Faith, posted 02-06-2017 5:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 02-06-2017 5:29 PM Modulous has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 347 of 993 (798956)
02-06-2017 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Faith
02-06-2017 4:57 PM


Faith writes:
The Constitution does not apply to noncitizens.
And so you start with utter bullshit. Yes, the US Constitution applies to anyone in the US, citizen or non-citizen.
Faithy writes:
The US can "discriminate" against any noncitizens it wants for whatever reason, including religions. It is in/sane to think otherwise. We have no obligation to let anyone into the country we don't want to let in.
And simply continue posting even more bullshit, falsehoods and absurdities. The US cannot discriminate against anyone, citizen or non-citizen based on religious beliefs; Thank God.
Faith writes:
Islam properly speaking is a political ideology more than a religion anyway, an ideology that is dangerous to any nonMuslim nation on the planet, as well as some Muslim nations.
And end up with yet another falsehood.
Three for three Faith.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Faith, posted 02-06-2017 4:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 348 of 993 (798957)
02-06-2017 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Modulous
02-06-2017 5:22 PM


Non-citizens within US jurisdiction are equally protected as citizens.
That's in/sane.
THAT DOES NOT APPLY TO NONCITIZENS. NEVERTHELESS WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT DEPRIVING ANYONE WHO HAPPENS TO BE HERE OF ANY HUMAN RIGHTS, BUT WE ARE CERTAINLY WITHIN OUR RIGHTS TO DEPORT THEM IN ANY CASE IF THEY ARE NOT HERE LEGALLY, FOR ANY REASON WHATEVER WITHOUT DUE PROCESS.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2017 5:22 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2017 5:42 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 366 by AZPaul3, posted 02-06-2017 6:44 PM Faith has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2507 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 349 of 993 (798959)
02-06-2017 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by PaulK
02-06-2017 5:16 PM


PaulK writes:
They can't be pre-emptively banned from office but they should be in a world of trouble if they tried to put that belief into practice.
This isn't hard to understand.
The loyalists were considered traitors. Marxism can and has been described as a non-theist religion, and is certainly a belief. When I first went to the U.S. "are you or have you ever been a member of the communist party" was a standard question.
What about someone who believes that the laws of their god super-cede all laws made by man? Could Trump claim that it is valid to refuse such a person entry to the U.S. as they would not accept the rule of U.S. law? Or would the courts be right to overrule him on the grounds that he was practising religious discrimination (which he certainly would be doing)?
Is it always easy to understand?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by PaulK, posted 02-06-2017 5:16 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by PaulK, posted 02-07-2017 12:23 AM bluegenes has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 350 of 993 (798960)
02-06-2017 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Faith
02-06-2017 5:29 PM


THAT DOES NOT APPLY TO NONCITIZENS.
quote:
No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Note, when it is speaking of citizens, it says 'citizens'. Then it says ANY PERSON. This is in contrast to citizens. ANY PERSON. So yes, that includes non-citizens.
NEVERTHELESS WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT DEPRIVING ANYONE WHO HAPPENS TO BE HERE OF ANY HUMAN RIGHTS, BUT WE ARE CERTAINLY WITHIN OUR RIGHTS TO DEPORT THEM IN ANY CASE IF THEY ARE NOT HERE LEGALLY, FOR ANY REASON WHATEVER WITHOUT DUE PROCESS.
They are people under the jurisdiction of the United States. They are both subject to its laws and protected by them.
If you think that is insane, you need a 2/3 majority in the legislature. The President can't ignore this. That's the Constitution, Faith. If a President goes against it, it's the Judiciary's responsibility to step in.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 02-06-2017 5:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 351 of 993 (798961)
02-06-2017 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by bluegenes
02-06-2017 4:43 PM


bluegenes writes:
The U.S. will have been discriminating against believers in certain sub-sects of Islam for some time in its immigration policy. Where were the courts?
How so?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by bluegenes, posted 02-06-2017 4:43 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by bluegenes, posted 02-06-2017 6:09 PM Taq has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2507 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 352 of 993 (798962)
02-06-2017 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Modulous
02-06-2017 5:17 PM


Modulous writes:
bluegenes writes:
Those who are arguing against Trump on freedom of religion grounds might end up defending people who believe that their god would want them to fly aeroplanes full of people into skyscrapers full of people.
Denying someone due process because of their religion runs into the freedom of religion. I happily defend the rights of people who want to fly aeroplanes into buildings. However, if they attempt to do it, the right to life trump's their right to practice their religion and they should be prevented. However, they should still be given due process and equal protections. We should still give them a right to remain silent, a right to an attorney, the right to a jury etc etc etc.
An individual has this religious belief that you'll happily defend, but if you were a U.S. immigration official and you knew of this religious belief and refused him entry due to that religious belief, are you being unconstitutional?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2017 5:17 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by Taq, posted 02-06-2017 6:06 PM bluegenes has replied
 Message 362 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2017 6:13 PM bluegenes has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 198 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 353 of 993 (798963)
02-06-2017 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by Taq
02-06-2017 12:26 PM


It may or may not be unconstitutional (I think it is but what do I know), but it may be illegal because of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Ironic if it is, because it was created to allow Christians to refuse to serve Teh Creeping Gay.
How Trump's Executive Order on Immigration Violates Religious Freedom Laws - Just Security

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Taq, posted 02-06-2017 12:26 PM Taq has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 354 of 993 (798964)
02-06-2017 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Faith
02-06-2017 5:06 PM


Yes and a country needs to govern non-citizens too. Please provide your source for your argument. Have you read the Constitution at all?
quote:
Article XIV (Amendment 14 - Rights Guaranteed: Privileges and Immunities of Citizenship, Due Process, and Equal Protection)
1: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Do you notice how it talks about citizens and then talks about persons. Do you think non-citizens are not persons? you really should not offer opinion on things you seem to know nothing about. You are wrong. Again. Still.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Faith, posted 02-06-2017 5:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 355 of 993 (798966)
02-06-2017 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Faith
02-06-2017 4:57 PM


Faith writes:
The Constitution does not apply to noncitizens.
It does apply to government agents issuing and honoring visas.
The US can "discriminate" against any noncitizens it wants for whatever reason, including religions.
Since when?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Faith, posted 02-06-2017 4:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 356 of 993 (798967)
02-06-2017 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Faith
02-06-2017 5:12 PM


Caps make you look petty, foolish and more wrong than you are. The large font caps make you look like a ridiculous child. Yelling is for people without an argument.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Faith, posted 02-06-2017 5:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 357 of 993 (798968)
02-06-2017 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by Faith
02-06-2017 5:14 PM


You are speaking treason. I can't believe such seditious talk is allowed. If you don't like the Constitution you should leave.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Faith, posted 02-06-2017 5:14 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 358 of 993 (798969)
02-06-2017 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by bluegenes
02-06-2017 5:53 PM


bluegenes writes:
An individual has this religious belief that you'll happily defend, but if you were a U.S. immigration official and you knew of this religious belief and refused him entry due to that religious belief, are you being unconstitutional?
The only thing many of these people are "guilty" of is believing that Muhammad was a prophet of God.
These people have already gone through an extensive vetting procedure that lasts 1 to 2 years. They have had background checks, had interviews, and so on.
Trump wants to claim that he wants time to install "extreme vetting", but everyone has already seen what that means with respect to his own cabinet. He didn't even vet the people working with him in the White House. We all know what this is. It is a Muslim ban where the sole basis for denying entry is for believing that Muhammad is a prophet of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by bluegenes, posted 02-06-2017 5:53 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by bluegenes, posted 02-06-2017 6:17 PM Taq has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2507 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 359 of 993 (798970)
02-06-2017 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by Taq
02-06-2017 5:47 PM


Taq writes:
bluegenes writes:
The U.S. will have been discriminating against believers in certain sub-sects of Islam for some time in its immigration policy. Where were the courts?
How so?
Groups like the Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS etc. aren't just political organisations. They are theological sub sects, and their theologies are very important to them. I'm assuming that if someone is known to be a believer in one of these sects by the U.S. government, they will certainly face discrimination if attempting entry into the U.S., and this would have been happening for a long time.
Is this unconstitutional?
The problem for your courts is getting Trump without implicating his predecessors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Taq, posted 02-06-2017 5:47 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by Taq, posted 02-06-2017 6:11 PM bluegenes has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 360 of 993 (798971)
02-06-2017 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Faith
02-06-2017 5:05 PM


Faith writes:
Freedom of religion was always understood not to include a religion that endorsed any kind of criminal behavior according to the laws on criminality. Religions that practice human sacrifice are therefore excluded, as is a religion that practices violent jihad against "infidels". Unfortunately such a commonsense rule is rejected by the prevailing craziness these days.
You are painting an entire religion using the actions of a minority. There are millions of muslims that live peacefully in the US, love the US, and are not involved in any criminal behavior. They have more compassion for the fellow Americans in their little finger than you do in your whole body.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Faith, posted 02-06-2017 5:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
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