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Author | Topic: The Trump Presidency | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
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NoNukes writes: I have yet to see any of you righties take a stab at explaining Trump in any way that does not involve stupid conspiracy theories or juvenile attacks on Trump's critics. Perhaps you can change that impression? marc9000 writes: There's nothing more juvenile than the mainstream media attacks on him for the past year and a half. He's only human, he's going to get a little bit blustery in the face of that much hate. Translation: "No I [marc9000] cannot take a stab at explaining Trump in any way that does not involve stupid conspiracy theories or juvenile attacks on Trump's critics. Your message contained a lot of comments, and I can tell that they are heart-felt. But you also proved my point. Quite frankly, I think I do understand the appeal of Trump, and I could explain it in terms that don't make folks look/sound like idiots to folks like me. Apparently, such a task is nigh impossible for most of the Trump supporters who post here. It's also apparent that from this thread that at least some Trump supporters (I definitely do not consider you in this insult) are idiots who believe just about every right wing conspiracy theory I they've ever heard.
You say he acts like an idiot largely because you simply don't like him personally. Well, no. I say that because of the ridiculous things he says that are clearly not facts. There are also some of his policies that I don't consider merely wrong, but also unconstitutional and racist/xenophobic. I don't know Trump personally, but he has a reputation for treating the folks he does business with poorly. Example. That nonsense he spouted about his electoral victory of 306 votes, which by the way was actually 304, being the greatest margin since Reagan was idiotic. His defense when called on that statement was equally idiotic. I'd make the same comment if Obama said the same thing. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I've made a couple of comments to the effect that Republicans by and large support Trump and that that support has not been much affected by post-election events. I think the reasons for that are fairly simple. Namely, that most of his supporters are in favor of Trump's policies even if they do have some misgivings about the president.
The article below describes interviews with Trump supporters each of whom describes their reasons for supporting Trump. The reasons include their opinions of Hillary, their desire to have the general Republican agenda become the law of the land (including easing up of regulations, dismantling Roe v. Wade, and keeping foreigners out of the country). What you won't see much of is the ridiculous stuff that makes up the defense of Trump is this thread. These Republicans didn't like Trump at first. They do now. | CNN Politics
quote: Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000 |
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Trump doesn't have a magic wand, he's going to get blamed no matter what he does, or even if he were to do nothing. If Trump does nothing, won't it be the folks who elected him who are complaining? With respect to Obama care, if there is indeed a catch 22, Trump and the Republicans basically put themselves in position to take a fall for what happens when if they don't replace it with something functional by making promises in the run up to the election. Trump seems to have figured this out before his colleagues in the House and Senate did. However what Trump has elected to do is try to make sure the ACA fails by pricking holes in it. So when it fails, why shouldn't he get the blame.
he claims that parts of the U.S. constitution applies to the entire world is probably something many foreign leaders and citizens aren't too crazy about. My question to you is why should anyone discuss any topic with someone who repeatedly distorts. At this point folks have clarified what their meaning so often that your continued insistence that posters are claiming the constitution applies to the entire world is best labeled as a deliberate lie. What folks are instead claiming is explicitly stated in the 14th amendment which is that there are due process rights applicable to all any person within its jurisdiction.
Today - recently, I'm noticing headlines that can give a completely false impression if read by themselves, without getting slightly, or largely conflicting information later in the story. Yes that does happen. Perhaps not blowing up until you read the article would be a good way to proceed. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It failed long before he was elected, it's a significant reason he was elected. It failed with some help from the right in crippling the initiative. And even with that, it seems that most people currently do not want the ACA removed without a replacement. However, both of those observations and questions completely miss the point. If what Trump and his party come up with is "not as good as" that should be reported.
NoNukes writes: My question to you is why should anyone discuss any topic with someone who repeatedly distorts. mar9000 writes: I haven't had a chance to get to that other thread yet but I intend to, maybe tonight or the next evening or two. I haven't even checked that one lately to see what kind of a wreck it has become That's your excuse for lying?
But as you can see in my above response to dwise1, sometimes reading the whole article doesn't make the dishonesty go away. Are you ever going to provide any meaningful Trump examples? I saw your examples about the "truck driver" who was actually a "pickup truck driver" and the other example where you decided that you did not like the photo. Both issues were easily cleared up by reading the article. Just what did you think was being conveyed when you thought the truck driver was an 18 wheeler operator? What difference would that make? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Chris Wallace called him a "kinder, gentler Donald Trump." Hard to believe. It's hard to know how seriously to take this, we'll have to see what develops. What if in addition to the wing nut stuff Trump does, he manages to pull of some version of comprehensive immigration reform, while putting in place a half-way decent health care replacement (meaning something other than y'all poor folks hurry up and die)? Goodbye democrats forever? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Trump is great he is doing everything he said he would. That's why I voted for him, along with 79.6% of the people in Sublette County Wyoming where I live. I understand that folks often dismiss petro's posts, but his opinion seems to match that of ninety percent of Republican voters. Everything that appears inane and stupid to his detractors seems genius to folks like Petro, marc9000, and Faith as well as millions of others. Trump is going to be a two-term president. Most of us are underestimating his appeal by applying logic, reason, and truth to what he says and are missing the fact that his attacks on the press and wild conspiracy theories regarding his opposition, just confirm things they already believe and make them feel good about themselves. Facts alone are not going to convince his base. It also turns out that you really can make a country work better by scapegoating the weak, depriving folks of heath care and safety nets, and exploiting nationalism, putting coal dust into rivers and streams, and punishing/discriminating against folks without due process as long as you paint them as the enemy. History shows that such things work at least in the short term. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
People who can't afford $2500 for healthcare are being taxed an additional $1200 and receiving nothing in return. That's not right and should be fixed. My understanding is that Trump has instructed the IRS not to enforce this penalty or tax, or whatever you need to call it. The result will likely be even more folks not signing up. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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It is for Republicans, because they actually have some diversity in believing what's best for current and future generations. Didn't almost all of those 'diverse' Republicans already vote to repeal the Affordable Care Act something close to 50 times? Your answer would not seem to be much cover for not coming up with an acceptable solution sometime over the last seven years. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Not to worry. Trump did manage to get out the golf club Sunday.
quote: Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
There's never going to be an acceptable solution to the current U.S. healthcare mess, until one very non-politically correct thing is realized. New medical innovations, research and development is VERY expensive. As soon as it's applied, everyone demands it. It has to be reigned in, because our society can't afford it. When new innovations are applied, they have a higher likelihood of failure, because they're not proven yet by the test of time. Are you advocating for some kind of rationing of health care? I agree that there is a problem with the expensive healthcare, but I would submit that it is a combination of expensive research, as well as the failure of unregulated commerce to generate a profit motive for economic care. But the primary problem most people face is the inability to access routine care, both emergency and preventative, at a reasonable price. Everything in health care grows at much more than the rate of inflation. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Why should they make anything public before they have to? It only would give the Democrats more time and ability to block it. Stop trying to make ineptitude look like genius. There never was a plan. Everybody knows that now. Do you have any interest whatsoever in telling the truth or are is defending the Republican party your only aim. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I already understand everything you said. People who can't afford healthcare simply forgo healthcare as much as possible. That's right. However the purpose of the penalty is to modify behavior. It is the case that you don't get anything for the penalty, but that is how penalties work. And of course the really poor folks were supposed to be covered by Medicaid expansion which was intended to be mandatory. Unfortunately, a full 1/3 of the states opted out of coverage for poor folks. And again, there is no need to fix that before fixing the rest of the ACA. The penalty is not being enforced right now.
It's worth noting that Trump has occasionally advocated a single-payer system, but it's hard to know how serious he is I think we know the answer to that. At this point, it is pretty obvious that any advocacy for single payer by Trump is an insignificantly low priority because he did not ask his party for any such thing. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Sounds like there is truth to the idea that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians. Maybe. But Flynn's request has been refused. http://www.nbcnews.com/...cts-immunity-michael-flynn-n741061
quote: In my view, turning down Flynn's request is the right thing to do. Flynn is implicated, and if you accept his plea without knowing the facts, Flynn could just fall on his sword without implicating anyone else. Investigate some more, and then make a call on offering Flynn immunity once you've gotten some details. Or at least get a proffer from Flynn regarding what he would say. Absent that, no immunity. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Combined with the "General Welfare" clause this casts a fairly wide net. You go on to discuss the clause as originally interpreted, but its interpretation has grown increasingly expansive over time, most notably about 80 years ago with the advent of social security, and later Medicare. I wouldn't let marc9000 get away with quite so much. He is cherry picking his founders. Hamilton is no less a "prominent" founder than the others. The current interpretation is squarely in the center of the Hamiltonian view. The earlier interpretation was closer to the Madison interpretation. Neither view is some new fangled concoction of liberals. [1] ABE: [1] General welfare clause - WikipediaHamilton's view actually prevailed during the first two presidential administrations (Washington and Adam) before being overtaken by the less expansive view. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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In a new low, Trump's administration manages to draw seemingly valid human rights criticism from Russia:
quote: It appears that the calculation of "acceptable loses" vs "killing terrorists" has changed a bit. There are no claims of any significant killing of terrorists in this attack, and some dubious excuses for why a school was targeted. signed Ghost of Dronestar. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000 |
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