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Author Topic:   Genesis and Evolution - Tom Larkin
Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 58 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 1 of 15 (814935)
07-13-2017 6:48 PM


I have just written this short book that I feel align scripture and evolution, and I would like to get comments from this team. I am more interested in getting the information out and improving it with comments than I am interested in selling books (although it is available on Amazon). If you request a copy I will e-mail the manuscript (it is a short book)

Edited by Tom Larkin, : No reason given.

Edited by Tom Larkin, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-14-2017 10:07 AM Tom Larkin has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11858
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2 of 15 (814986)
07-14-2017 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tom Larkin
07-13-2017 6:48 PM


I have just written this short book that I feel align scripture and evolution, and I would like to get comments from this team.

Are you just playing the game where you:


  • assume that the Bible must be saying something that is correct
  • refuse to go against current scientific understandings
  • spin and twist either or both what the Bible says and what science says, so that you can:
  • smoosh together superfluous meaning from the two and claim that they align

Is that what your book is about?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-13-2017 6:48 PM Tom Larkin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-16-2017 3:50 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 58 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 3 of 15 (815120)
07-16-2017 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by New Cat's Eye
07-14-2017 10:07 AM


No, no smooshing. I am just presenting a simple Biblical argument that states the events that occur in Genesis 1 happen before the events of Chapter 2. Men and women were created in Chapter 1 and Adam and Eve were created in chapter 2. If you accept this simple biblical logic, this coincides with recent findings that all men alive are genetically descended from a single man, and all women are descended from a single women. Other men and women were existing at the time of this common descendant (Y chrome Adam and Mitochondrial Eve), which is what the Bible says.

Men and women, I believe through natural mens lived prior to Adam and Eve. This eliminate the conflict between evolution and Genesis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-14-2017 10:07 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-16-2017 10:45 PM Tom Larkin has responded
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 07-17-2017 12:16 AM Tom Larkin has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11858
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 4 of 15 (815161)
07-16-2017 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tom Larkin
07-16-2017 3:50 PM


I am just presenting a simple Biblical argument that states the events that occur in Genesis 1 happen before the events of Chapter 2.

Well, one does come before two... but are you saying that there were two creation events, then?

Do you know that according to history Chapter 2 was written before Chapter 1? They're different accounts of the same event that cover different aspects and details of a singular creation. It's not one event happening after the other.

Men and women were created in Chapter 1 and Adam and Eve were created in chapter 2. If you accept this simple biblical logic, this coincides with recent findings that all men alive are genetically descended from a single man, and all women are descended from a single women. Other men and women were existing at the time of this common descendant (Y chrome Adam and Mitochondrial Eve), which is what the Bible says.

Wrong. Y-chromosomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve were not contemporaries - that is, they lived at very different time periods. They couldn't be the Adam and Eve of the Bible.

Men and women, I believe through natural mens lived prior to Adam and Eve.

Okay, but Adam is literally the "first man".

This eliminate the conflict between evolution and Genesis.

Not really, but there's no need to do that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-16-2017 3:50 PM Tom Larkin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-17-2017 5:35 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13392
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 5 of 15 (815163)
07-17-2017 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tom Larkin
07-16-2017 3:50 PM


As I pointed out in the other thread.

Message 307
The existence of a Y-chromosomal "Adam" and a Mitochondrial "Eve" is to be expected. There is no scientific way to connect them to the Bible stories at all. Even if the Bible stories were entirely true we could only use the Flood story to identify Noah as "Adam" - and the evidence is that they are not entirely true, so even that identification cannot be made by science.

The only scientific conclusions that could help are the dates. However.
Message 310

"Adam" apparently lived long before "Eve" who lived long before the explosion of agriculture in the Neolithic period, which you seem to think happened at the same time as the "Adam" . (While there is much uncertainty in the dates for "Adam" and "Eve" the dating of the Neolithic Revolution is more secure and has never been thought to overlap with either)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-16-2017 3:50 PM Tom Larkin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-17-2017 5:19 PM PaulK has responded

    
Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 58 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 6 of 15 (815234)
07-17-2017 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by PaulK
07-17-2017 12:16 AM


The dates associated with the MRCA's is not important, what is important is that a Most Recent Common Ancestor existed while other men and women existed. This is only a coincidental argument and not my primary argument.

The dates for the MRCA have changed significantly over the last 5 years and they will continue to do so in the near future.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 07-17-2017 12:16 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Taq, posted 07-17-2017 5:24 PM Tom Larkin has responded
 Message 8 by PaulK, posted 07-17-2017 5:26 PM Tom Larkin has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7282
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 7 of 15 (815235)
07-17-2017 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tom Larkin
07-17-2017 5:19 PM


Tom Larkin writes:

The dates associated with the MRCA's is not important, what is important is that a Most Recent Common Ancestor existed while other men and women existed. This is only a coincidental argument and not my primary argument.

What we are saying is that if there was no real biblical Adam and Eve there would still be a mitochondrial Even and a Y-chromosome Adam. Any sexually reproducing population will have these two MRCA's. There is a set of these Adams and Eves for chimps, bears, bats, and so on. They are simply a product of pedigree collapse, where maternal and paternal lines tend to end which leaves just one line remaining.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-17-2017 5:19 PM Tom Larkin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-17-2017 7:24 PM Taq has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13392
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 8 of 15 (815236)
07-17-2017 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tom Larkin
07-17-2017 5:19 PM


You aren't looking at the MRCAs though. And even if you were their existence would still be of no real importance to your argument. There is nothing that connects them to the Biblical story.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-17-2017 5:19 PM Tom Larkin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-17-2017 7:22 PM PaulK has responded

    
Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 58 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 9 of 15 (815238)
07-17-2017 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by New Cat's Eye
07-16-2017 10:45 PM


My main argument is Biblical. If you don't accept the Bible and Adam and Eve than you already have no conflict with evolution, then you don't need to read further.

My Biblical argument is men and women were created in Chapter 1, Adam, Eve and the garden were created in Chapter 2. The earth and the rest of the universe already existing prior to the events of Chapter 2. The descendants of Adam and Eve were described as the "Sons of God" in Chapter 6 (see Luke 3:38 among many other passages), the descendent of the men and women in Chapter 1 are described as the "daughters of men". It was important that Noah was "perfect in his generation" which said he was a direct descendent of Adam and Eve.

Throughout Genesis, in all genealogies, the line not leading to Jesus is always given first, every time. This is a continuation of that pattern.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-16-2017 10:45 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Taq, posted 07-17-2017 5:40 PM Tom Larkin has not yet responded
 Message 14 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-18-2017 8:52 AM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7282
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 10 of 15 (815239)
07-17-2017 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tom Larkin
07-17-2017 5:35 PM


Tom Larkin writes:

My main argument is Biblical.

So where does the science part come in, with respect to Evolution?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-17-2017 5:35 PM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

  
Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 58 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 11 of 15 (815240)
07-17-2017 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by PaulK
07-17-2017 5:26 PM


It is impossible to prove MRCA to an individual, all that is part of my "coincidental" argument is that MRCA exist when other men and women existed. Ancestry.com only goes back to Methuselah.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by PaulK, posted 07-17-2017 5:26 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2017 12:21 AM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

    
Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 58 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 12 of 15 (815241)
07-17-2017 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Taq
07-17-2017 5:24 PM


Do you have a valid scientific source that links pedigree collapse to MRCA?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Taq, posted 07-17-2017 5:24 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Taq, posted 07-18-2017 11:31 AM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13392
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 13 of 15 (815251)
07-18-2017 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tom Larkin
07-17-2017 7:22 PM


quote:

It is impossible to prove MRCA to an individual, all that is part of my "coincidental" argument is that MRCA exist when other men and women existed

If you wanted to support your point - even simply from the perspective of refuting the usual interpretation of the Adam and Eve story - you would do better to deal with arguments from effective population size. I don't have time to track down the reference right now but human population has never been as low as two individuals - or eight.

Arguing that unidentifiable people lived at the same time as others is of no significance. As I have pointed out earlier, if the Flood really killed everyone but the eight in the Ark, Noah would be the Y-Chromosomal "Adam". Does it really help your argument to say that Noah lived alongside other men and women ?

Edited by PaulK, : Spelling


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-17-2017 7:22 PM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11858
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(2)
Message 14 of 15 (815279)
07-18-2017 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tom Larkin
07-17-2017 5:35 PM


My main argument is Biblical.

Okay: Adam literally means the first man.

There were no men before Adam.

So your argument that there was is wrong.

If you don't accept the Bible and Adam and Eve than you already have no conflict with evolution, then you don't need to read further.

That smells like a cop-out....

The Garden of Eden myth is not supposed to be a historical event that literally happened in the real world. It is folk lore.

My Biblical argument is men and women were created in Chapter 1, Adam, Eve and the garden were created in Chapter 2.

Yes, you've explained that. It is wrong. Adam was the first man.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-17-2017 5:35 PM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7282
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 15 of 15 (815288)
07-18-2017 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Tom Larkin
07-17-2017 7:24 PM


Tom Larkin writes:

Do you have a valid scientific source that links pedigree collapse to MRCA?

It is not that hard of a concept to understand. Take my brother-in-law as an example. He has 4 brothers and no sisters. This means that his mother's mitDNA line ended with her. Any father who has no children or only daughters will have his Y-chromosome lineage stop.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-17-2017 7:24 PM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

  
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