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Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Religion or Science - How do they compare? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
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FYI, Ive never seen hundreds. The ones commonly used by the apologists are these I believe the list of dozens of verses has been posted in discussions here before. There are lots of apologist verses, and the reason that there is such a large number of citations is due to the huge stretch it takes to call any single one or small group of the verses evidence of their position. And of course, there are equal numbers of verses that non-Trinitarians cite that provide very clear proof that Jesus considered himself and his Father to be not the same. The only reason for the doctrine is that early Christians were accused by Jews of not having a monotheistic religion. The Trinity doctrine is the response to that accusation. In my view, Trinity doctrine is at best iffy, and certainly not essential. But it is not the worst thing that fundamentalist graft onto the Bible. Calvinism would hold that bottom spot. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The sum of the statements read in context is far less clear than you would like it to be. Faith has also admitted that coming to her conclusion involves reading the references as she thinks they are supposed to be read. In short, the meaning would only be apparent to someone who already accepts the conclusion and is looking for any faint hope that the Trinity doctrine is correct. The number of required references is not strictly speaking the problem. The problem instead is the requirement that you follow the commentary of some folks in order to get what Faith claims is the meaning. If, in fact, the verses reach the correct conclusion, then someone should be able to present an argument, using as many sources as they need, that makes the point. Maybe someone can do that, but it is clear that Faith cannot do it. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I've heard it said that if you can visualize/imagine it, you can create it. Well, then I guess that's all the evidence you need. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
But religion provides a justification for them to do what they have done A lot of things justify folks doing bad stuff including capitalism, racism, love of family. Most of the stuff that motivates us can also provide justification for doing bad stuff. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Yes, there are ideologies, cultural traits or human values that have nothing to do with Religion and those have also been used by people to justify bad stuff. But an important difference with Religion is that the justification in the latter is presented as coming from an omniscient perfect being who knows better than us. Yes, those are distinctions. But the point remains. The fact that people use something to justify evil does not make the something evil. It instead means that people do evil. I maintain that it is not a directive from God to do evil, and that the evil comes first, and the excuse or justification comes after. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
But the something which in this case is Religion, is not innocent. It is is a human creation, injected with its fair amount of poison which has encouraged people to entertain their selfish motives and feel justified to act on them. If you have a case to make after conceding that your original statements don't prove your case, then make it. Christianity was not conceived to do evil, but because some folks believed it freed them from evil. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Perhaps more significantly, it seems to me that the Bible is compromised as a source of moral guidance if we must apply our own moral sense to it, to sort out the good from the bad. Well, that depends upon if your religion is Biblianity or Christianity. As far as I am concerned, the New Testament sorted that stuff out completely. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Otherwise I don't know of any church-authorized "wickedness" on the Protestant side. You don't know because you are not even trying. Why did the Baptist Church splinter in 1845? Why did the Methodist Church have a similar split? Sometimes it is best just to keep silent.
The Lutheran Church did sincerely apologize for Luther's anti-Semitic outburst As if Luther's anti-Semitism was a one-time thing. You are aware that we only know about his beliefs because he wrote about them, right? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Perhaps you should take it upon yourself to explain what you mean. And how on earth does a split in a denomination in any way support the idea of general Protestant "wickedness?" In had assumed that you were able to follow my lead. The split was because the Southern Baptist Church and the Southern Methodist Church endorsed slavery. The claim was not about general Protestant wickedness, but instead about your claim that evil was not an issue with the Protestant church. It was an issue. And of course, I could name other issues like punishing people for witchcraft. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The Roman church had incited Anti-Semitism for centuries, notably in Spain, and went on promoting pogroms and the like None of which excuses Martin Luther, or allows us to excuse his evil as an "outburst". We are not having a contest, we are pointing out that Protestants and their churches are not blameless. You cannot defend that with, "well look at the Catholics." Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I think it explains a lot to realize that Luther had given up his Catholic based antisemitism. Too bad he lost his biblical focus when the Jews turned out to be blasphemers of Christ. Nice attempt to excuse evil. But that's what you always do when problems with Protestants are pointed out. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
By this, do you mean that everything that the New Testament says is morally acceptable? I don't believe I said that, so I appreciate that you phrased this in the form of a question rather than as an accusation. If you want me to be more specific, I will point out that as I Christian, I believe we should follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. My experience is that doing so does not present me with any moral dilemmas. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
NoNukes writes: If you have a case to make after conceding that your original statements don't prove your case, then make it. Paboss writes: You need to quote my own words where I concede that my original statements don’t prove my case. I am a bit puzzled by this response.' I noted your concession about not having proved your position. But since you did not drop your position, asking for you to make a case seems appropriate. Are you instead conceding that you were wrong? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Yeah, that's because at EvC everybody denies the evils I've pointed out, the really really bad evils, and instead makes a huge big deal about some bad Protestants, or even a mere slipup by a good Protestant I haven't pointed out any mere "slip-ups", and I haven't even bothered to debate the things you say about Catholics. But I appreciate the acknowledgment of your denials of fact.
Protestantism as a movement is nothing at all like Catholicism So what if it is not like Catholicism? According to your BS, Catholicism is the purest evil. Not being like Catholicism is really not all that much to brag about. Protestants have done their own evil.
while accusing me of being a bigot for telling the truth. Out of respect for the request from the moderators, I am going to let this opportunity pass. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Let's take Faith and me. Granted, I know you through what you write better than she does because I take a lot of time to read what you write. Earlier in this thread, you told her to stop lying. Was liar the worst epithet thrown around here? Weren't folks being called Nazis? What was in that message you removed in that response to me? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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