Religion or Science - How do they compare?

Well grace through faith is what we were arguing about. since I'd said I had nothing to offer God and that He chooses losers and sinners. Also that we have nothing to do with choosing God, which would also be a personal merit tht earns salvation, but that God chooses us; it's what Tangle seemed to be saying was not biblical, and you kept telling him it's all because I'm a Calvinist, so that's what my verses demonstrate. The sovereignty of God in salvation, that you can't earn your salvation. If that isn't what you were saying please clarify.But as for predestination, that too is biblical, and Calvinism certainly does not claim we can know who is predestined and who is not, that is known only to God, so Calvinists give the gospel to all.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Nothing came up that I recall about God's offering a choice to accept or reject salvation. Of course He does. But that isn't what *I* was talking about. All I was saying was that we cannot choose, God has to give us the ability to choose at the time that He chooses us. He has to give us the faith, the ability to believe, the understanding of the gospel and so on. None of that is natural to us.abe: Repentance too is a gift from God, as it says in Acts 11:18: /abeBut of course we may be offered salvation and choose for or against it, but I'm talking about where the power comes from to choose for it. If it comes from us then we get credit for it and that's what the doctrine of grace but not works denies us. If our faith comes from ourselves that is a work for which we can take credit. But if we are saved entirely by God's grace then it all comes from Him and we can't take credit for any of it. I couldn't believe in what I knew about God, which admittedly wasn't much, but there was a point where I could and did believe, and I attribute that to God's giving me that gift at that time.abe: (If anyone takes this as barring anyone from salvation who actually desires salvation, it has to be answered that the desire itself comes from God and anyone who actually wants to be saved can be saved. As Jesus said Whoever comes to Him He will not turn away. Those who believe none of it and don't want it aren't going to be disappointed, but anyone who does want it may have it.)/abe Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I didn't say we can choose. God's offering a choice is not the same thing as people having the natural ability to choose.

'I don't know but I suspect it is most likely the frame of mind of a modern westerner.

Does saying that God offers us a choice mean the same thing to you as saying that we have the ability to choose? They seem to me to be saying entirely different things, but sometimes I forget I'm at EvC where who knows what anything is likely to mean at any given moment.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Well, I quoted the Bible so you could see that I didn't make it up. All I asked you to do was acknowledge that fact.

No you will get what you actually choose, whatever it is.God has to give us the spiritual ability to choose salvation, but we choose whatever we choose in any case. If you want salvation that means God has given you that ability to choose iit so if you choose it you will have it, and if you choose against salvation you won't be saved. In every case you get what you choose. Nobody will feel that they didn't get what they wanted.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

There is no connection whatever. I quoted four statements that say salvation is by grace and not works and gave a link to more of the same. It's all there in black and white. You don't have to agree with it or anything, just acknowledge the simple fact that they all say the same thing, and that therefore the concept is biblical.If you want to quote Alice in Wonderland in a number of places on the same subject and ask me to acknowledge that fact I will happily do so.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Well, people seem to think that God is doing something against your will by choosing whom to save, but whatever He does is very consistent with your will. Let me try again. We are all "born of the flesh<' since the Fall, we've lost the spiritual connection with God that Adam and Eve had, so we are unable to appreciate or choose the things of the spirit. God however has decided to save some number of us. He doesn't have to do that, it's also His sovereign choice. He could leave us all to go to Hell. But He chooses some and He chooses the timing too. Some of us get born again, that is, regenerated, that is, have our spirits renewed that were lost at the Fall, so we can choose the things of God. Until that happens we're all "at enmity with God," the wole human race. Those who remain at enmity have no interest in spiritual things. If you have even a little interest you can ask God to increase it and He will, He doesn't act against our desire to be spiritually renewed or saved. I keep being amazed that nobody here seems to be interested, just committed to hating the whole idea. I figure that confirms the Bible's statement that we are all at enmity with God although I often wish it weren't so true. Anyway, we do choose, we choose based on our fleshly inclinations or based on our renewed spirit. I wish many of you all at EvC would desire salvation.

The thing is, GDR, as I just wrote to AZPaul, you can't have a good heart unless God renews your spirit, meaning regenerates you, meaning you are born again, and that IS salvation or the first stage of it. Salvation is salvation from the Fall first and foremost, from the sin nature we inherited from Adam at the Fall, the sin nature that is merely "flesh" and always chooses selfishly and always chooses fleshly things. Salvation means we will eventually be freed of all sin and all its consequences, but not until after this life. That altruistic heart you keep talking about comes from tht renewed spirit. Some of those who are still "in the flesh" have more of that altruistic spirit than others just naturally but that's not what Jesus is talking about, He's talking about a completely regenerated human being, who is "born of the Spirit." And similarly some of us get born again from a particularly selfish mean spirit and have farther to go than others to "put on the new man" of Christlikeness. I'll cop to that one, if I can be saved anyone can be saved. But God loves even us and patiently guides us..Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Not necessarily. Some people "in the flesh" have an interest in spiritual things just naturally, or such an interest could be from God who is working on the soul toward salvation, and in any case I'd want to encourage it so that the person might yet pursue salvation. Nobody knows whom God has chosen so any slight signs are to be encouraged and magnified and if they are from God He will increase them. Actually if anybody really likes the idea of Christian salvation and wants to pursue it, I wouldn't want to judge the cause of it, if you seek it you'll find it, if you knock He will answer. And not to leave anyone out, even the most resistant to the idea could yet get magnificently saved. "God works in mysterious ways His wonders to perform." Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

That's a good clear statement of it, basically what I've been trying to say.The problem people have with these things is that Calvin was a master at thinking things through from God's point of view. I think it was Luther who advised against talking to new believers (much more so unbelievers) about predestination and other facets of the Christian life from God's point of view because we are mere human beings who can't grasp it and we'll only make a mess of trying to understand it. Alll the basics from the human point of view are also true and more accessible: Just "believe on Jesus Christ and be saved."Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This is true but we aren't in a position to know that in any given case so we give the gospel and leave it to God, and encouraging any signs of interest could help. Yes I did and it's completely true. The idea of foreknowledge makes God into a powerless passive observer of our sovereign choices by which we could deserve credit, but scripture says God does it all. But we do have choices, we make them all the time, and God may give someone the spiritual ability to choose salvation and that is not for us to judge. Jesus told us to go into all the world and give the gospel because we have no idea whom God has chosen, we are just to leave all that to Him. People will respond or not to the gospel and that's all we need to know. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

From our human point of view we do have a meaningful choice and that's all that matters. Trying to second-guess God is fruitless.

And yes He does control our desires in the sense I've been saying, that He gives us the ability to choose salvation which otherwise we don't have in our fallen condition.